HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes 03.16.2022323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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CONTRACTORS EXAMINING BOARD
Wednesday, March 16, 2022
TIME: 8:30 A.M. to 10:00 A.M.
PLACE: Commission Chambers of the Roger Poitras Annex
2300 Virginia Avenue
Fort Pierce, FL 34982
BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:
James "Travis" Leonard (Chair)
Tony Jerger (Vice Chair)
Michael Pride
Sheila McCarthy-Taylor
Michael DiFrancesco
Adam Sampson
Chris Langel
COURT REPORTERS, INC.
108 North Depot Drive
Fort Pierce, FL 34950
info@court-reporters.com
772-464-2664
2 (Pages 2 to 5)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ---
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: The March 16, 2022 Licensing
4 Board meeting. Would you please call the roll?
5 MS. JOHNSON: Good morning everyone.
6 Mrs. Taylor?
7 MRS. TAYLOR: Here.
8 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
9 MR. SAMPSON: Here.
10 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
11 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
12 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
13 MR. JERGER: Here.
14 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
15 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
16 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Here, ma'am.
18 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
19 MR. PRIDE: Yes, ma'am.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: I want to thank everybody for
21 being here on time and ready to go. I know we've
22 already had heard from Mr. Neill before the meeting
23 started, but this is your segment of the agenda, if
24 you have anything else you want to add Mr. Neill.
25 MR. NEILL: I do not. I think I'm looking
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1 forward to working with you all and doing the good
2 work.
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Fantastic. Thank you,
4 Mr. Neill. We look forward to working with you as
5 well. You have big shoes to fill.
6 Mrs. Barbieri kept me in order, and kept me in
7 line, and kept me in check as best as she could so
8 good luck, by the way.
9 MR. NEILL: Well, she's still there trying to
10 keep someone in check.
11 MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sure everybody had the
12 opportunity to review the minutes of the meeting
13 from previous meetings. Does anybody have any
14 additions, deletions, substractions?
15 (No response.)
16 I'll take a motion to approve.
17 MR. LANGEL: Motion to approve.
18 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Second.
19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion by Mr. Langel. Second
20 by Mr. DiFrancesco.
21 All in favor?
22 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
24 (No response.)
25 Would you please swear in the staff members?
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1 MS. JOHNSON: State your name for the record.
2 DOUG HARVEY: Doug Harvey.
3 MIKE CICIO: Mike Cicio.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Do you affirm to tell the truth,
5 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
6 DOUG HARVEY: I do.
7 MIKE CICIO: Yes.
8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Secretary, thank you.
9 On the agenda next is swearing -- the public
10 comment. We reserve this portion of this meeting
11 for public comment. If anybody is in the audience
12 and are willing -- and wanting to come up here and
13 address the Board, this is your time to do so.
14 (No response.)
15 Seeing none I'll close this portion of the
16 agenda for public comment.
17 Up next is applications to be approved by
18 consent. Are there any additions, deletions to the
19 agenda on the approval by consent?
20 (No response.)
21 Does the Board have any questions of anybody
22 that is on the approval by consent?
23 (No response.)
24 I would be willing to accept a motion for
25 approval.
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1 MR. PRIDE: Motion to approve.
2 MR. LANGEL: Second.
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion by Mr. Pride. Second by
4 Mr. Langel.
5 All in favor?
6 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
8 (No response.)
9 Madam Secretary, please read them into the
10 roll.
11 MS. JOHNSON: Good morning again.
12 Thomas Gonzalez, doing business as
13 Add Lines Electric, Inc., electrical contractor.
14 Brian P. Bedard, doing business as
15 Bedard Services, LLC, residential contractor.
16 Roberto C. Diaz, doing business as
17 Indian River Home Services, LLC, electrical
18 contractor.
19 Joe C. Harmon, III, doing business as
20 Premier Site Work, LLC, land clearing contractor.
21 William H. Burrows, IV, doing -- I'm sorry --
22 journeyman electrician.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Madam Secretary. Up
24 next is Approval by Reciprocity.
25 Do I have a motion to approve?
3 (Pages 6 to 9)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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1 MR. PRIDE: Motion to approve.
2 MR. LANGEL: Second.
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion to approve by Mr. Pride.
4 Second by Mr. Langel. All in favor?
5 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
7 (No response.)
8 Madam Secretary, please read that.
9 MS. JOHNSON: Andrew J. Kobosko, Jr., doing
10 business as Guardian Storm Protection, Inc.,
11 hurricane protection contractor.
12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Madam Secretary.
13 Next is Order of Administratively Approved on
14 Reciprocity from the City of Port St. Lucie or
15 City of Fort Pierce. Can you please read that name
16 into the record as well?
17 MS. JOHNSON: Jennifer M. Smith, doing
18 business as DJP Fence Contracting Services, LLC,
19 fence contractor.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you so much. That is the
21 portion of the meeting that I really enjoy the
22 most, providing people with licenses to operate a
23 business in our county.
24 I think that's what we're all here for.
25 Next on the agenda is, Waiver of Right to a
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1 Hearing for Failure to Pay or Appeal the Citation.
2 Up first I believe we have Henry R. Williams,
3 HW Road Contraction.
4 Mr. Cicio, would you please address the Board?
5 MR. CICIO: Yes, sir, good morning.
6 Mr. Chairman, members of the Board, if you
7 would be so kind, the first six cases are actually
8 on this contractor, the same violation.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
10 MR. CICIO: With your permission, I would like
11 to read each narrative consecutively with the
12 property address and case number into the record,
13 and then testimony can be given by opposing counsel
14 here.
15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Please do so, Mr. Cicio.
16 MR. CICIO: So the first case is 102 -- I'm
17 sorry, 107266 for 4851 Christensen Road.
18 For the record, I'm submitting two photos
19 taken on December 8, 2021 at the property address
20 of 4851 Christensen Road in Fort Pierce; a copy of
21 a personal check dated November 30, 2021, Check No.
22 1001 from the account of the property owner's
23 Mr. and Mrs. Lindo made payable to
24 Henry Williams, business owner of
25 HW Road Construction, LLC, for the amount of
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1 $9,000, and a copy of an invoice from
2 HW Road Construction provided to
3 Mr. and Mrs. Lindo on November 30th of 2021.
4 HW Road Construction, LLC, Mr. Henry R.
5 Williams, has been found to be an unlicensed paving
6 contractor in St. Lucie County. Mr. Williams does
7 not possess a license through the Florida
8 Department of Business and Professional Regulations
9 for his trade.
10 On January 26, 2022, I issued a $2,000
11 citation. This is for a ninth offense for engaging
12 in the business or acting in the capacity of a
13 contractor without being duly registered or
14 certified.
15 A compliance date of February 21, 2022 was
16 provided. I mailed out a copy of the citation and
17 citation letter certified mail to the residential
18 business address of Mr. Williams listed in Sunbiz;
19 however, it remained undelivered. A copy of the
20 citation and citation letter was posted on February
21 8th of 2022.
22 Since I obtained no compliance, had no contact
23 from Mr. Williams and the citation remained
24 uncontested, a Notice to Appear before the
25 March 16, 2022 Contractor Licensing Board was
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1 mailed certified mail, which remains undelivered.
2 A copy was posted on the property on March 3rd of
3 2022.
4 Since the citation remains unpaid, Staff is
5 recommending that a lien be placed on the real or
6 personal property of Mr. Henry R. Williams,
7 HW Road Construction, LLC if this citation is not
8 paid within 30 days.
9 Case No. 2, for 4640 Christensen Road,
10 Case No. 107151. For the record, I am submitting 8
11 photos; six photos taken on December 8, 2021; two
12 photos taken on December 9, 2021 at the property
13 address of 4640 Christensen Road in Fort Pierce. I
14 am submitting a proposed -- a photo of a personal
15 check dated on December 8, 2021 made payable to
16 Henry Williams, business owner of HW Road
17 Construction, LLC for the amount of $6,500 This
18 check image was provided to me by the property
19 owners, Mr. Bill Sunderland.
20 HW Road Construction, LLC, Mr. Henry Williams,
21 has been found to be an unlicensed paving
22 contractor in St. Lucie County. Mr. Williams does
23 not possess a license through the Florida
24 Department of Business and Professional
25 Regulations, DBPR, for his trade. On January 5th
4 (Pages 10 to 13)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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1 of 2022, I issued a $2,000 citation for the eighth
2 offense for engaging in the business or acting in
3 the capacity of a contractor without being duly
4 registered or certified.
5 The compliance date of January 24th of 2022
6 was provided. I mailed out a copy of the citation
7 and citation letter certified mail to the
8 residential business address of Mr. Williams listed
9 in Sunbiz; however, it remained undelivered. A
10 copy of the citation and citation letter was posted
11 on January 10th of 2022.
12 Since I obtained no compliance and had no
13 contact from Mr. Williams and the citation remained
14 uncontested, a Notice to Appear for the
15 March 16, 2022 Contractor Licensing Board was
16 mailed by certified mail which was delivered and
17 signed for on February 9th of 2022. A copy was
18 posted on the property, as well, on February 8th of
19 2022.
20 Since the citation remains unpaid, Staff is
21 recommending that a lien be placed on the real or
22 personal property of Mr. Henry R. Williams, HW Road
23 Construction, LLC, if the citation is not paid
24 within 30 days.
25 Case No. 3, for the property address of
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1 4680 Christensen Road. Case No. 107150. For the
2 record, I'm submitting two photos taken on
3 December 9, 2021 and two photos taken on
4 January 4th of 2022 during a follow-up inspection
5 at the property address of 4680 Christensen Road in
6 Fort Pierce. I am submitting a copy of an invoice
7 from HW Road Construction provided to the property
8 owner, Mr. Samuel LeBrun, for a grade and paved
9 driveway dated on December 10th of 2021. The
10 method of payment was two card charges, one for
11 $5,000 and one for $6,000 totaling $11,000.
12 HW Road Construction, LLC, Mr. Henry Williams,
13 has been found to be an unlicensed paving
14 contractor in St. Lucie County. Mr. Williams does
15 not possess a license through the Florida
16 Department of Business and Professional Regulations
17 for his trade.
18 On January 5th of 2022, I issued a $2,000
19 citation, seventh offense, for engaging in the
20 business or acting in the capacity of a contractor
21 without being duly registered or certified. A
22 compliance date of January 24, 2022 was provided.
23 I mailed out a copy of the citation and citation
24 letter certified mail to the residential business
25 address of Mr. Williams listed in Sunbiz; however,
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1 it remained undelivered. A copy of the citation
2 and citation letter was posted on January 10th of
3 2022.
4 Since I obtained no compliance, had no contact
5 from Mr. Williams and the citation remained
6 uncontested, a Notice to Appear for the
7 March 16, 2022 Contractor Licensing Board was
8 mailed by certified mail, which was delivered and
9 signed for on February 9th of 2022. A copy was
10 also posted on the property on February 8th of
11 2022.
12 Since the citation remains unpaid, Staff is
13 recommending that a lien be placed on the real or
14 personal property of Mr. Henry R. Williams,
15 HW Road Construction, LLC if the citation is not
16 paid within 30 days.
17 Case No. 4, for the property address of
18 4370 Christensen Road. Case No. 107149. For the
19 record, I am submitting two photos taken on
20 December 9th of 2021 at the property address of
21 4370 Christensen Road in Fort Pierce, and a photo
22 of a carbon copy of a personal check dated
23 November 29th of 2021 made payable to
24 Henry Williams, business owner of HW Road
25 Construction, LLC for the amount of $9,500. This
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1 check image was emailed to me by the property
2 owner, Ms. Renee Lawson.
3 HW Road Construction, LLC, Mr. Henry R.
4 Williams, has been found to be an unlicensed paving
5 contractor in St. Lucie County. Mr. Williams does
6 not possess a license through the Florida
7 Department of Business and Professional Regulations
8 for his trade.
9 On January 5th of 2022, I issued a $2,000
10 citation, a sixth offense, for engaging in the
11 business or acting in the capacity of a contractor
12 without being duly registered or certified. A
13 compliance date of January 24, 2022 was provided.
14 I mailed out a copy of the citation and citation
15 letter certified mail to the residential business
16 address of Mr. Henry Williams listed in Sunbiz;
17 however, it remained undelivered. A copy of the
18 citation and citation letter was posted on
19 January 10th of 2022.
20 Since I obtained no compliance, had no contact
21 from Mr. Williams and the citation remained
22 uncontested, a Notice to Appear before the
23 March 16, 2022 Contractor Licensing Board was
24 mailed by certified mail which was delivered and
25 signed for on February 9th of 2022. A copy was
5 (Pages 14 to 17)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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1 also posted on the property on February 8th of
2 2022.
3 Since the citation remains unpaid, Staff is
4 recommending that a lien be placed on the real or
5 personal property of Mr. Henry R. Williams, HW Road
6 Construction, if the citation is not paid within 30
7 days.
8 For Case No. 5, property address of
9 606 South Market Road. Case No. 107148. For the
10 record, I'm submitting a total of 11 photos; nine
11 photos taken on December 13 of 2021, two photos
12 taken on December 14th of 2021 at the property
13 address of 606 South Market Road in Fort Pierce.
14 The photos show that HW Road Construction
15 prepped and laid asphalt behind the building. HW
16 Road Construction, LLC, Mr. Henry R. Williams, has
17 been found to be an unlicensed paving contractor in
18 St. Lucie County. Mr. Williams does not possess a
19 license through the Florida Department of Business
20 and Professional Regulations for his trade. On
21 January 5th of 2022, I issued a $2,000 citation for
22 a fifth offense for engaging in the business or
23 acting in the capacity of a contractor without
24 being duly registered or certified. A compliance
25 date of January 24, 2022 was provided. I mailed
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1 out a copy of the citation and citation letter
2 certified mail to the residential business address
3 of Mr. Williams listed in Sunbiz; however, it
4 remained undelivered. A copy of the citation and
5 citation letter was posted on January 10th of 2022.
6 Since I obtained no compliance, had no contact
7 from Mr. Williams and the citation remained
8 uncontested, a Notice to Appear for the
9 March 16, 2022 Contractor Licensing Board was
10 mailed by certified mail, which was delivered and
11 signed for on February 9th of 2022. A copy was
12 also posted on the property on February 8th of
13 2022.
14 Since the citation remains unpaid, Staff is
15 recommending that a lien be placed on the real or
16 personal property of Mr. Henry R. Williams, HW Road
17 Construction, LLC if the citation is not paid
18 within 30 days.
19 Case No. 6, for the property address -- hold
20 on one second please -- for the sixth case,
21 602 South Market Street, Case No. 107147. For the
22 record, I'm submitting one photo taken on
23 December 13th of 2021 at the property address of
24 602 South Market Street in Fort Pierce. A copy of
25 a personal check dated December 10, 2021,
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1 Check No. 7726 from the account of property owner,
2 Mr. William Brown, made payable to Henry Williams,
3 business owner of HW Road Construction, LLC for the
4 amount of $4,200, and a copy of an invoice from
5 HW Road Construction provided to Mr. Brown for prep
6 and cleaning and resurface driveway dated
7 December 10th of 2021.
8 HW Road Construction, LLC, Mr. Henry Williams,
9 has been found to be an unlicensed paving
10 contractor in St. Lucie County. Mr. Williams does
11 not possess a license through the Florida
12 Department of Business and Professional Regulations
13 for his trade. Mr. Williams has previously been
14 cited by Staff on three occasions, in which two of
15 the three citations were paid.
16 On January 5th of 2022, I issued a $2,000
17 citation, the fourth offense, for engaging in the
18 business or acting in the capacity of a contractor
19 without being duly registered or certified. The
20 compliance date of January 24, 2022 was provided.
21 I mailed out a copy of the citation and citation
22 letter certified mail to the residential business
23 address of Mr. Williams listed in Sunbiz; however,
24 it remained undelivered. A copy of the citation
25 and citation letter was posted on January 10th of
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1 2022.
2 Since I obtained no compliance, had no contact
3 from Mr. Williams and the citation remained
4 uncontested, a Notice to Appear before the
5 March 16, 2022 Contractor Licensing Board was
6 mailed by certified mail, which was delivered and
7 signed for on February 9th of 2022. A copy was
8 posted on the property on February 8th of 2022.
9 Since the citation remains unpaid, Staff is
10 recommending that a lien be placed on the real or
11 personal property of Mr. Henry R. Williams,
12 HW Road Construction, LLC if the citation is not
13 paid within 30 days.
14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cicio, thank you. I
15 believe Mr. Williams has representation today.
16 ATTORNEY MILDNER: Good morning. Attorney Roy
17 Mildner on behalf of Mr. Williams.
18 MR. CHAIRMAN: Attorney Roy, what was your
19 last name?
20 ATTORNEY MILDNER: Mildner. M-I-L-D-N-E-R.
21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
22 Mr. Mildner, will Mr. Williams be speaking on
23 his behalf? If he is, I just need him to be sworn
24 in, if he would please, or are you going to be
25 speaking on his behalf?
6 (Pages 18 to 21)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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1 ATTORNEY MILDNER: I'll be speaking on
2 Mr. Williams' behalf.
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
4 ATTORNEY MILDNER: Good morning.
5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning.
6 ATTORNEY MILDNER: Basically, Mr. Williams had
7 come to my office to get legalized, I guess, from
8 the standpoint of having a proper licensure. One
9 of the largest obstacles that we had was getting
10 somebody to sign off locally. So you kind of have
11 to go out of town to get somebody -- another paving
12 contractor to say that you're competent in doing
13 what you do. That's probably been the biggest
14 stumbling block.
15 Mr. Williams realizes that, you know, that he
16 is not doing any work until we get this
17 straightened. We had submitted earlier this month
18 an application but did not include or did not have
19 that person to certify another paving contractor to
20 certify. We are here. It is what it is. There
21 are issues with regard to trying to come to
22 completion in complying and getting this license
23 that, again, he has hired my office to accomplish
24 that task. I assume that we should be able to get
25 it done within the next 30 to 60 days. Sometimes
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1 there's just difficulty in getting that
2 accomplished, but I -- I feel strongly that we'd be
3 able to do that. It's just a matter of getting
4 again -- I'll probably have to go out of town. I
5 don't know any other paving contractors. I've been
6 in this area for 36 years, and I've met a lot of
7 contractors and subcontractors but not in the
8 paving industry.
9 So I'm here to help Mr. Williams comply and
10 get in compliance. We would just ask that if --
11 you know, whatever fine that the Board elects to
12 impose, that we could have some type of a pay
13 arrangement simply because it's just a large sum of
14 money that if you add up all of those -- I think
15 I've talked to Mr. Cicio, I've dealt with before,
16 it's probably somewhere 18,000.
17 SPEAKER: Fourteen.
18 ATTORNEY MILDNER: Fourteen. I was
19 overshooting it. So if there's any leniency, we
20 can have --
21 MS. JOHNSON: I'm sorry to interrupt, sir.
22 Can you talk into the mic, because we're recording
23 it?
24 ATTORNEY MILDNER: I mumble a lot. Sorry, I'm
25 sorry. That if there can be some leniency on
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1 grouping these together, Mr. Cicio had gone through
2 them, and coming up to that penalty and -- and
3 assessing that fine that we can have some payment
4 arrangement in order to do that.
5 Obviously, we realize that becomes a lien on
6 your personal property. That's not an issue. We
7 intend to pay whatever fine the Board elects to --
8 to do and get this matter behind us and be like we
9 were in the beginning of this meeting on getting
10 approved by you all to become a licensed paving
11 contractor.
12 All of the years that Mr. Williams has done it
13 there's been no complaint, not -- that still does
14 not justify not getting this in order. Sometimes
15 people just can't seem to get out of their way on
16 the business side of things, as opposed to the
17 actual practical side of doing the job itself and I
18 think that -- in that particular case. So we're
19 basically leaving it up to the Board to --
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Mildner. I
21 really do appreciate that. It is unfortunate that
22 your client did not seek your representation about
23 a year ago when he was in front of this Board
24 previously for the other fines that he has. I
25 was -- I spent about an hour and a half reading
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1 each and every one of these and I was able to add
2 up about $45,000 worth of work that your client's
3 done. Your client is running a very successful
4 illegal business at the end of the day being he's
5 unlicensed. He's got amazing rates, amazing stuff.
6 I actually want him in front of us to be licensed.
7 I want him here to have a license to operate
8 truthfully and honestly, like the rest of us up
9 here at the Board that we have licenses to do, so
10 Mr. Cicio can spend his time and efforts and
11 energies doing other things in this area.
12 Does anybody have any questions for
13 Mr. Mildner?
14 (No response.)
15 Does anybody have any questions for Mr. Cicio?
16 Mr. Cicio, you had mentioned that he had had
17 three previous citations against him, two of which
18 have been paid --
19 MR. CICIO: Correct.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: -- and one was still
21 outstanding. There was a lien placed on his
22 property on that one?
23 MR. CICIO: Yes, sir. That case came before
24 the Board. It was a no-show. It was a default.
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
7 (Pages 22 to 25)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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1 MR. CICIO: And the Board --
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yeah. That's what I remember.
3 I remember that. So we have $10,000 in front of us
4 today.
5 MR. CICIO: Twelve.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Twelve thousand.
7 MR. CICIO: Yes, sir.
8 MR. LANGEL: How long ago were cases 2 and 3?
9 MR. CICIO: I believe they were back early
10 last year, but I can go back and give you exact
11 dates if you want them.
12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cicio, how were you -- how
13 did you find out about this? On these -- these
14 five or six in front of us now?
15 MR. CICIO: This was a -- actually a drive-by
16 of Christensen Road. I was on the property, I
17 believe, on another complaint, and I saw them
18 operating on a driveway, and then I believe it was
19 within the next couple of days they were on
20 South Market Avenue.
21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now question, do we have
22 to have a motion on each individual citation as we
23 go through or we can -- Mr. Neill?
24 MR. NEILL: Well, let me -- I don't think so,
25 but let me query Staff.
Page 23
1 MS. BARBIERI: We need -- if you're going
2 to -- we need to put a lien on each number. So if
3 you're going to do one motion, you do need to at
4 least put each citation number in the motion and
5 let us -- so that we can figure out if you're
6 grouping them or something like that, I'm not sure
7 what you're doing, you know, where the liens would
8 be and the amounts.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
10 MS. BARBIERI: So if it can be done so it's
11 understandable, you can do one motion; otherwise,
12 separate please.
13 MR. CHAIRMAN: So Ms. Barbieri, if I was to
14 entertain a motion that started with
15 Case No. 107147, 107406 and go through from there
16 and there was a value that was assigned to each one
17 of those case numbers, that would be okay?
18 MS. BARBIERI: Yes, sir.
19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Appreciate that.
20 Any other questions for Staff?
21 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Excuse me. I think I have a
22 question for Mr. Neill.
23 I don't think that this Board has the ability
24 to make payment plans, to setup payment plans with
25 him, on what they're asking.
Page 24
1 MS. BARBIERI: This is Katherine Barbieri,
2 Staff Attorney, I don't believe there is a payment
3 plan option in the ordinance, but you could extend
4 the time for payment or make some due in 30 days
5 and make some due in 60 days, that might be
6 something you can do, but, yeah, each one would
7 have to have a definite date.
8 MR. CHAIRMAN: So we -- we could extend the 30
9 days fine to be paid within 90 days or 120 days.
10 We could also, if I believe it correctly,
11 Mr. Neill, we could also state that he has to be
12 licensed within that amount of time?
13 MR. NEILL: Yes. I think you can put a time
14 frame on it.
15 MS. BARBIERI: And as another suggestion just
16 for the Board from Staff, you could continue for
17 90 days and wait to see if he does come back
18 licensed and then take that into consideration.
19 Whatever the Board's pleasure.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I really appreciate
21 that, Ms. Barbieri. In my opinion, we are here as
22 a Board to hold people accountable, but also help
23 people do the right thing and be licensed. That's
24 my opinion.
25 MR. JERGER: I've got a question for Staff.
Page 25
1 To help him get licensed a year ago, does he know
2 that process and and the cost of that? Does he
3 know that? Have we explained that to him versus
4 how much money he's made? Have we explained the
5 process of getting licensed?
6 MR. CICIO: Mr. Jerger, I appreciate the
7 question and to answer that question is yes. I
8 could recall four to five occasions in which
9 Mr. Williams has sent either his spouse or one of
10 his foreman into our office and all of that
11 information has been provided at lease on four or
12 five occasions to this company within the past year
13 and a half to two years.
14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Cicio.
15 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Mr. Mildner?
16 ATTORNEY MILDNER: Yes.
17 MR. DIFRANCESCO: You say you're working on
18 helping him get licensed. How far do you -- you
19 say you have a hard time getting someone to sign
20 off saying that he does his work.
21 MR. MILDNER: As I said, that -- that was, I
22 guess, my only stumbling block at this point but
23 we're -- there's someone down in Palm Beach I
24 believe that --
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, we finally got the
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Page 26
1 some --
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Excuse me,
3 Mr. Williams, if you are ever going to say a word
4 we've you have to be sworn in.
5 MR. MILDNER: We got -- we got someone down in
6 Palm Beach to do that, as I said, but that was --
7 that was probably my biggest roadblock at the
8 moment. The rest of the paperwork -- but I mean,
9 it's just -- that's -- I think when we actually
10 submitted one of the applications they basically
11 returned it and said you don't have a person
12 signing off on this, which is true. I mean, it
13 just wasn't there. It wasn't in the package. So
14 they basically said we don't want to lick it. And
15 I totally understanding, you're wasting your time
16 until we have that.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: It's just a shame it didn't
18 happen a year ago and then Mr. Cicio to go out
19 there and do all of this hard work.
20 MS. JOHNSON: Chair?
21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, ma'am.
22 MS. JOHNSON: He can get a letter from a
23 general, building, residential or a paving
24 contractor. Any one of those four can write a
25 letter for him, not just a paving contractor.
Page 27
1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
2 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Danielle or Staff, is this
3 going to be a stumbling block for him to get -- to
4 get legally licensed in St. Lucie County? Don't we
5 have this -- obviously, he's going to have to come
6 in front of us for a review. We're going to have
7 to decide whether we even want to give him the
8 license after all this. Am I correct?
9 MS. BARBIERI: Assistant County Attorney
10 Katherine Barbieri. I believe it will be the
11 Board's decision whether -- and -- I mean, of
12 course, and whether there's liens because you do
13 have to take financial viability into account.
14 So -- which it does appear that he probably is
15 financial viable, but I don't know that. So it
16 would just be something you would consider, but
17 it's not impossible to overcome.
18 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Anybody have a
19 motion?
20 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Mr. Chairman?
21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. DiFrancesco.
22 MR. DIFRANCESCO: I think you said that --
23 we've established that each case number has to be
24 read out?
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
Page 28
1 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay. Mr. Chairman, I'd
2 like to make a motion. I'd like to make a motion
3 that we find -- we accept Staff's recommendation
4 for Case No. 107266, 107151, 107150, 107149,
5 107148, 107146, 147. I'd like to make that
6 recommendation that a $2,000 citation be paid. I
7 would say -- I don't have an objection to give him
8 60 days to pay these.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: So your motion is 60 days?
10 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, sir.
11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. DiFrancesco. I
12 have a motion. Do I have a second?
13 MR. LANGEL: I'll second the motion.
14 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion by
15 Mr. DiFrancesco and a second by Mr. Langel.
16 Madam Secretary, would you please call a voice
17 vote.
18 MS. JOHNSON: For Case No. 107266,
19 Mrs. Taylor?
20 MRS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am.
21 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
22 MR. SAMPSON: Yes.
23 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
24 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
25 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
Page 29
1 MR. JERGER: Yes, ma'am.
2 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
3 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, ma'am.
6 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
7 MR. PRIDE: Yes, ma'am.
8 MS. JOHNSON: For Case No. 107151,
9 Mrs. Taylor?
10 MRS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am.
11 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
12 MR. SAMPSON: Yes, ma'am.
13 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
14 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
15 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
16 MR. JERGER: Yes, ma'am.
17 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
18 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
19 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, ma'am.
21 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
22 MR. PRIDE: Yes, ma'am.
23 MS. JOHNSON: For Case No. 17150, Mrs. Taylor?
24 MRS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am.
25 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
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1 MR. SAMPSON: Yes.
2 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
3 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
5 MR. JERGER: Yes, ma'am.
6 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
7 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
8 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, ma'am.
10 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
11 MR. PRIDE: Yes, ma'am.
12 MS. JOHNSON: For Case No. 17149, Mrs. Taylor?
13 MRS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am.
14 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
15 MR. SAMPSON: Yes, ma'am.
16 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
17 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
18 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
19 MR. JERGER: Yes, ma'am.
20 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
21 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
22 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, ma'am.
24 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
25 MR. PRIDE: Yes, ma'am.
Page 31
1 MS. JOHNSON: For Case No. 107148,
2 Mrs. Taylor?
3 MRS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
5 MR. SAMPSON: Yes, ma'am.
6 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
7 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
8 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
9 MR. JERGER: Yes, ma'am.
10 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
11 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
12 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, ma'am.
14 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
15 MR. PRIDE: Yes, ma'am.
16 MS. JOHNSON: And final. For Case No. 107147,
17 Mrs. Taylor?
18 MRS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am.
19 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
20 MR. SAMPSON: Yes.
21 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
22 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
23 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
24 MR. JERGER: Yes, ma'am.
25 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
Page 32
1 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
2 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, ma'am.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
5 MR. PRIDE: Yes, ma'am.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mildner and Mr. Williams, I
7 truly look forward to actually having you licensed
8 in St. Lucie County. I do. We really do, but you
9 can't do unlicensed work in St. Lucie County.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Mr. Chairman, I would like
12 to say to Mr. Williams, you've got 60 days.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I got 60 days. Now should I --
14 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Do not get caught doing
15 something illegal in 60 days. You're going to
16 throw away everything. I promise you that.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Now, can I have -- put in for
18 my license before the fines are taken care of?
19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. You can do it right now.
20 MR. WILLIAMS: I can do it right now, okay.
21 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mildner, thank you for
22 being here.
23 MR. MILDNER: Thank you. You guys have a
24 great morning.
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, you, too.
Page 33
1 MR. MILDNER: I got the envelope right here.
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cicio, we have up next
3 Citation No. 7, John Schneider and/or Gitter Done
4 Home Maintenance. Would you please bring Staff up?
5 Bring the Board up to speed on that, please.
6 MR. CICIO: Yes, sir for Case No. 07406 for
7 the address of 3695 S. 25th Street in Fort Pierce,
8 Florida. For the record, I'm submitting 26 photos
9 taken on January 13, 2022 during an inspection of
10 the property address of 3695 S. 25th Street in
11 Fort Pierce. A copy of an invoice dated
12 April 17, 2019 from contractor Gitter Done Home
13 Maintenance TC, Inc., John Schneider, for the
14 Gervais residence located at 3695 S. 25th Street
15 for the contracted price of $123,500 to include
16 dumpsters, frame the floors, decks and stairs,
17 electrical, plumbing, drywall, painting and
18 insulation, new trim, flood vents, windows and
19 doors, cabinets and appliances, garage doors and
20 other miscellaneous items. A copy of a personal
21 check dated October 18, 2021, Check No. 289 from
22 the account of property owners Mr. and Mrs. Gervais
23 made payable to Gitter Done for the amount of
24 $9,621. The subject line on this check is for
25 electric.
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1 I'm submitting a copy of a subcontractor
2 agreement provided to me by email from
3 Mr. John Schneider, business owner and qualifier of
4 Gitter Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. that was
5 never submitted to the permitting department.
6 After inspecting this property on January 13th
7 of 2022, I found the permit on file, building
8 residential renovation Permit No. 1904-0240 had
9 recently been converted to an owner builder permit.
10 This permit originally applied and issued to
11 Jamison Brownie with Brownie Structural Movers on
12 August 20th of 2020 was to elevate the structure
13 out of a flood zone and install a new floor system.
14 Same footprint and construct extra steps at the
15 north side and southwest side.
16 Gitter Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. was
17 listed as a subcontractor on this permit. This
18 permit also included an installation of a stem
19 wall. Brownie Structural Movers contract with
20 Mr. and Mrs. Gervais was for a total of $79,600,
21 which was paid.
22 It was found that unpermitted interior work
23 had been completed, including framing and
24 electrical. Upon interview with Mr. John Schneider
25 on February 11th of 2022 he admitted to doing the
Page 35
1 framing and electrical work. Mr. Schneider claimed
2 that he believes that he is allowed to do
3 electrical work as long as it is not tying into
4 live electricity. Mr. John Schneider is a state
5 licensed certified residential contractor, License
6 No. CRC1331130. Under his license, Mr. Schneider
7 is not qualified to perform any electrical work as
8 specified by the Florida Department of Business and
9 Professional Regulations. This type of work is
10 required to be subcontracted. The subcontractor
11 agreement emailed to me by Mr. Schneider with the
12 subcontractor name of FTL Electric Service, Inc.
13 was never submitted to the permitting department.
14 FTL Electrical Services, Inc. did not perform this
15 work. This was admitted by Mr. Schneider. As a
16 result, I issued a $500 citation, Citation No. 267,
17 for engaging in a business or in acting in the
18 capacity of a contractor without being duly
19 registered or certified and proceeding on any job
20 without first obtaining an applicable building
21 permit and inspections to Gitter Done Home
22 Maintenance TC, Inc., Mr. John Schneider.
23 The citation was delivered and signed for by
24 certified mail on February 14th of 2022. After
25 receiving no compliance, I issued a notice to
Page 36
1 appear before the March 16, 2022 Contractor
2 Licensing Board, which was posted at the private
3 residence of Mr. Schneider on March 3rd of 2022.
4 Since the citation remains unpaid, Staff is
5 recommending that a lien be placed on the real or
6 personal property of Mr. John Schneider, Gitter
7 Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. if the citation is
8 not paid within 30 days.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Cicio.
10 Mr. Schneider I presume.
11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Good morning sir.
12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schneider, would you please
13 raise your right hand and state your name and be
14 sworn in?
15 MS. JOHNSON: State your name and address for
16 the record.
17 MR. SCHNEIDER: John Schneider,
18 301 SW Nativity Terrace, Port St. Lucie, Florida
19 34984.
20 MS. JOHNSON: Can you spell the name of the
21 street, please?
22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Pardon me?
23 MS. JOHNSON: The name of the street, can you
24 spell it?
25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Nativity, like the Christmas
Page 37
1 scene.
2 MS. JOHNSON: Okay. Do you affirm to tell the
3 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, ma'am.
5 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for being here today,
7 Mr. Schneider.
8 MR. SCHNEIDER: No problem, sir.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: A lot of times people do not
10 come in. Just make sure you speak clearly into the
11 mic if you would.
12 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll try the best. I just had
13 some dental work so please forgive me.
14 MR. CHAIRMAN: No worries.
15 MR. SCHNEIDER: First off, let me say that,
16 did I do some partial framing and run the electric?
17 Yes, I did. That was under the guidance of FTL
18 Electric who is my subcontractor. This is only the
19 second house that we've lifted up in this county.
20 The very first house we did, did get a CO. It's
21 all final and everything got done.
22 I was in constant contact with Mr. Durden,
23 William Durden, in the Building Department, to try
24 to make sure that we didn't make the same mistakes
25 that we made on the first house, because we were
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1 trying to do it with subcontractors, and then he
2 wanted a new -- new building plans and so forth
3 back and forth.
4 So I worked extremely diligent with Mr. Durden
5 on the first house. And I do believe the building
6 official before Mr. Harvey was here, there was a
7 whole mix-up of what permits to pull and the whole
8 nine yards. We finally got that straightened away.
9 We did all that. I've been working with Mr. Durden
10 to make sure I crossed my T's and dotted my I's
11 with the permit package for this house, since it
12 was going to have a new interior layout instead of
13 just dropping the walls back down and tying it in.
14 So I was getting all of the information
15 personally from everybody that I can. I had my
16 subs lined up. I got all of the floor stuff done
17 from Jamison up to his permit so far what we can
18 do, and I basically had to wait on the engineering
19 and blueprints and the energy calcs. Of course the
20 COVID came, it took a hit on everybody. The guy
21 who drew up the plans, Paul Welch, he had some
22 issues with drawing the plans and trying to get it
23 done in a reasonable amount of time. The Gervais
24 were there almost, you know, at least once a couple
25 of days, you know, demanding they get their permit
Page 39
1 done. It finally got done. I sent everything off
2 to energy calculations.
3 I was trying to move the project as far ahead
4 as I possibly can without doing anything
5 structural. The electrician, that stuff was run,
6 was done -- done under the guidance of FTL. I just
7 don't go in and say, I'm going to run all of the
8 electric. He would tell me, run the 14 here, run
9 this. We didn't tie anything in. It was dull.
10 So the way I kind of understand it, if I go
11 into a demo house and as soon as the box is off, I
12 can rip out all of the electrical wires so that's
13 why we were doing what we were doing, because there
14 was nothing connected. It was all done per code
15 and per the way my electrician told me, so go ahead
16 and do it. If you want to fault me for that, by
17 all means do that.
18 The reason I kept trying to go ahead with this
19 is because Mr. and Mrs. Gervais, they would show
20 up -- Mr. Gervais would show up at my house at
21 7 o'clock in the morning demanding my guys go over
22 and start working on the house. I kept telling
23 him, I don't have the permit issued yet. I cannot
24 do only so much because I don't have the permit
25 issued. I've got texts here that he demands I come
Page 40
1 over and do this kind of work, and I was trying to
2 appease him by trying to get the work done. The
3 last text I got or email I got from him, I think it
4 was a text, was if you're not going to do my house
5 and do the plumbing and electrical now, then I'll
6 get somebody else that will. And that's when I
7 said, Okay, go ahead, here's all your paperwork.
8 It's ready for permitting. I got all the energy
9 calcs done. Here's all your subcontractor stuff.
10 So I didn't leave it abandoned like that. You
11 know, there are some things that are changed, and
12 as I spoke to Mr. Harvey the other day about doing
13 some other things, you know, some of the licensing
14 things are -- are in to interpretation. Like in
15 some counties, I'm allowed to do windows and doors
16 in condos. I'm allowed to gut a whole penthouse on
17 the 18th floor. That county has no problem with me
18 doing it under my license. Here in St. Lucie
19 County, I can't put a window and a door in a third
20 floor condo multi building. I used to be able to.
21 I've been doing it for 20 years and I've always got
22 permits, and I can't do it now.
23 So I questioned Mr. Harvey. What is your
24 interpretation? He's a building official. He
25 makes the laws basically. It's under his
Page 41
1 interpretation. So, yes, I freely admit that did I
2 run the electric? Yes. Did I do the framing?
3 Yes. Did I install the windows or anything like
4 that? No, they're still there because that was
5 structural and I had to get an engineer to sign off
6 on how we were doing it.
7 I was just trying to appease the people to
8 make the job move as far ahead as possible so that
9 when the permit did get issued, that they were
10 going in. Mrs. Gervais had a health issue and she
11 had been in the hospital and so forth so I was just
12 trying to do it. There's an old saying, No good
13 deed goes unpunished, so punish me. I mean, that's
14 all I was doing.
15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, Mr. Schneider, thank you
16 for being here. Obviously, this is the first
17 offense. This is the first time we're seeing you
18 in front of this and we really appreciate your
19 honesty and really do appreciate you being here.
20 I work in 17 different counties and
21 municipalities throughout the State of Florida. It
22 is our responsibility as licensed contractors to
23 know what we can and can't do in each one of our
24 municipalities, and it is unfortunate that
25 sometimes you do get crossed up like that one.
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1 I have no further questions for Mr. Schneider.
2 Does anybody have any questions for Mr. Schneider?
3 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Sure I do.
4 Mr. Schneider, how long have you been
5 licensed?
6 MR. SCHNEIDER: Over 20 years.
7 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay. I thought I saw
8 somewhere in there 2015.
9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Pardon me?
10 MR. DIFRANCESCO: I thought I saw somewhere in
11 here that it was 2015.
12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, before that they -- they
13 grandfathered me to give me a license back in 2015,
14 but before that I had, just in a -- back when the
15 occupational handyman was there, and then I had a
16 company as a residential --
17 MR. DIFRANCESCO: A registered residential --
18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Registered residential before
19 that.
20 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay. Did you -- you admit
21 you started the job without a permit?
22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Pardon me, sir?
23 MR. DIFRANCESCO: You admit that you started
24 the job without a permit?
25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, sir. I definitely did do
Page 43
1 that, because I was trying to get all of the --
2 everything dotted so that Mr. Durden would approve
3 it.
4 MR. DIFRANCESCO: You admit that you did run
5 the electric --
6 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, sir.
7 MR. DIFRANCESCO: -- even though you didn't
8 connect it?
9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, sir.
10 MR. DIFRANCESCO: You do -- is your FTL, is
11 your subcontractor aware that -- because you're
12 saying that you worked under his license basically
13 saying under his supervision?
14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yes. Frank -- Frank and
15 I worked together for like 25 years so --
16 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Right. Has he ever been out
17 to this job?
18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
19 MR. DIFRANCESCO: So he's probably -- he
20 should be aware that he was -- he's in violation
21 himself by allowing an unlicensed contractor,
22 unlicensed electrician to work under his license.
23 MR. SCHNEIDER: Just so you know, Mr. Frank
24 Lombardi had passed away at the end of December.
25 He got cancer and died within a couple of weeks.
Page 44
1 But yes, yes.
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Frank was a dear friend of mine
3 and God rest his soul.
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: You know who he is.
5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yeah.
6 MR. SCHNEIDER: He was a good guy. I mean, I
7 actually worked for him when I was a kid so --
8 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay.
9 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- so, you know, I was aware
10 of it. He's like, you know, how to do all of this.
11 Just go ahead and get it started and let me know
12 when you get the permit and I can tie it in. So, I
13 mean yeah -- did I do that? Yes, sir.
14 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Is there a licensed plumber
15 on this job?
16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, sir, there was.
17 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Who's that?
18 MR. SCHNEIDER: It was in the packet that I
19 gave back to the Gervaises. Coastal Plumbing.
20 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Was Coastal Plumbing going
21 to work under your license?
22 MR. SCHNEIDER: They -- they're licensed.
23 They had a subcontractor agreement, yes.
24 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay.
25 MR. CICIO: Mr. DiFrancesco, Mike Cicio for
Page 45
1 the record. Yes, Coastal Plumbing was on that
2 property. I did talk to, Tim Nelson I believe his
3 name was --
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
5 MR. CICIO: -- with Coastal Plumbing. A
6 subcontractor agreement was submitted to
7 Mr. Schneider, it was never submitted to the
8 County, just for the record.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: So -- Mr. Cicio, what we have
10 in front of us is a disciplinary or a citation
11 for stating -- starting the project without a
12 permit.
13 MR. CICIO: Yes, sir. And I do have -- the
14 property owners are here with their son, if you
15 have any questions for them. I'm just letting the
16 Board know.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sure we will on the
18 disciplinary case coming up.
19 MR. CICIO: Okay.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Board have any other
21 questions for Mr. Schneider?
22 MR. DIFRANCESCO: So, Mr. Schneider, you --
23 you stated that you are no longer on this project.
24 MR. SCHNEIDER: No, because they demanded that
25 I keep working and get stuff done. They actually
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1 wanted to move in, they wanted me to get the
2 electric hooked up as soon as possible so I could
3 put boards up because they were having to leave the
4 place that they were staying.
5 MR. DIFRANCESCO: And --
6 MR. SCHNEIDER: And I told them I couldn't do
7 that.
8 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Did they fire you as a
9 contractor or did you decide to -- I'm walking
10 away?
11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Pardon me, sir?
12 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Did they fire you as a
13 contractor?
14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I took it that -- I took
15 it that way when they told me, and I have the text
16 here. If you're not going to do the job that we
17 want, then we'll find somebody else.
18 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay. So you pretty much
19 walked away?
20 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
21 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay.
22 MR. SCHNEIDER: I couldn't do anything more
23 legal than what they wanted me to do.
24 MR. DIFRANCESCO: What about all the money
25 that was paid? This money was paid to Gitter Done.
Page 47
1 Do you feel that they got their money's worth?
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. DiFrancesco, with all due
3 respect, we do have a disciplinary case coming
4 forward. If we can focus on this -- this
5 individual, we'll get to -- we'll get to that in
6 the next one.
7 With respect to this citation, does anybody
8 have any other questions for Mr. Schneider?
9 Any other questions of staff?
10 Do I hear a motion?
11 MR. LANGEL: I'll make a motion. Case 107406,
12 to you accept Staff's recommendations? $500
13 citation to be paid within 30 days of the date of
14 the Board meeting, authorize staff to place a lien
15 against contractor if not paid within 30 days.
16 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion by Dr. Langel,
17 do I have a second?
18 MR. PRIDE: Second.
19 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a second by Mr. Pride.
20 Madam Secretary take a voice vote, please.
21 MS. JOHNSON: Mrs. Taylor?
22 MRS. TAYLOR: Yes, ma'am.
23 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
24 MR. SAMPSON: Yes, ma'am.
25 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
Page 48
1 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
2 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
3 MR. JERGER: Yes, ma'am.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
5 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
6 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
7 MR. CHAIRMAN: No, ma'am.
8 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
9 MR. PRIDE: Yes, ma'am.
10 MS. JOHNSON: It passed.
11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schneider, thank you.
12 Mr. Cicio? Disciplinary case.
13 MR. CICIO: Okay.
14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schneider, you can stay
15 there if you would like.
16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
17 MR. CICIO: Yes, sir. For Case No. 107407 for
18 3695 S. 25th Street in Fort Pierce for
19 Mr. John Schneider. For the record, I'm submitting
20 the following documents as evidence into the record
21 for these proceedings. 26 photos all taken by me
22 on January 13th of 2022 during an on-site
23 inspection of the property address of 3695 S. 25th
24 Street.
25 A Notice to Appear for the March 1, 2022
Page 49
1 Contractor Licensing Board with proof of certified
2 mail service. The Notice to Appear was serviced
3 via certified mail on February 18th of 2022 at 1:46
4 P.M. I'm submitting a copy of the complaint
5 affidavit followed with the County by the property
6 owner's son, Michael Gervais on behalf of the
7 property owners Yves and Jamie Gervais on
8 January 10th of 2022. Exhibits submitted with the
9 complaint affidavit are: Exhibit 1, Contractor's
10 Waiver of Lien; Exhibit No. 2., letter from the
11 office of Susman Godfrey, LLP to contractor
12 John Schneider with Gitter Done Home Maintenance;
13 Exhibit 3, invoice dated on April 19th of 2019 from
14 Gitter Done Home Maintenance for the price of
15 $123,500; Exhibit No. 4, invoice; Exhibit No. 5,
16 personal check 289 from the account of
17 Mr. and Mrs. Gervais to Gitter Done Home
18 Maintenance TC in the amount of $9,200 -- I'm
19 sorry -- $9,621 for electric; Exhibit No. 6,
20 pictures submitted from the property owners;
21 Exhibit 7, quote from Manning Building Supply with
22 proof of payment; Exhibit No. 8, invoice from
23 Tim Nelson with Coastal Plumbing Services for
24 plumbing work in the amount of $1,000 invoices and
25 receipts.
14 (Pages 50 to 53)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
Page 50
1 I'm submitting a copy of the building permit
2 application dated April 9th of 2019 to elevate the
3 structure out of a flood zone and install a new
4 floor system. The contractor of record is listed
5 to be Brownie Structural Support Movers,
6 Jamison Brownie. This application was signed by
7 property owner, Yves Gervais with notary on
8 March 25th of 2019 and by Jamison Brownie on April
9 9th of 2019.
10 I am submitting copies of the permit review
11 along with scheduled inspections. I am submitting
12 a copy of a building permit subcontractor agreement
13 for Permit No. 1904-0240 signed by John Schneider,
14 qualifier of Gitter Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc.
15 I am submitting a copy of a Notice of Commencement
16 for the address of 3695 S. 25th Street signed by
17 both Yves Gervais and Jamison Brownie. I am
18 submitting a copy of the permit history for 3695 S.
19 25th Street, which includes permit No. 1904-0240
20 for the residential renovation and permit 2112-0201
21 for a metal roof. I am submitting a subcontractor
22 agreement emailed to me by John Schneider, Gitter
23 Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. for the company of
24 FTL Electrical Services, Inc. that was never
25 submitted to the permitting department. I am
Page 51
1 submitting a copy of an invoice provided by Mr.
2 Gervais showing the scope of work performed by
3 Brownie Structural Movers. The total cost for this
4 project quoted was $79,600. I'm submitting
5 Division of Corporations and Contractor License
6 Information for both Gitter Done Home Maintenance
7 TC, Inc and Brownie Structural Movers, LLC. I am
8 submitting a copy of a contract, invoices and proof
9 of payments made to Brownie Structural Movers, LLC.
10 for the total cost of $79,280. I'm also submitting
11 invoices and proof of payments made to Gitter Done
12 Home Maintenance TC, Inc. for the total cost of
13 $102,630, which is approximately 84 percent of the
14 total quoted cost of $123,500.
15 On January 10th of 2022, a complaint affidavit
16 was filed by Mr. Gervais on behalf of his parents
17 and property owners, Mr. and Mr. Gervais, against
18 Gitter Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. for the work
19 performed at the address of 3695 S. 25th Street in
20 Fort Pierce.
21 After inspecting this property on
22 January 13th of 2022, I found that the permit on
23 file, building residential renovation Permit No.
24 1904-0240 had recently been converted to an owner
25 builder permit. This permit originally applied and
Page 52
1 issued to Jamison Brownie with Brownie Structural
2 Movers on August 20th of 2020 was to elevate the
3 structure out of a flood zone and to install a new
4 floor system. Same footprint and construct decks
5 with steps at the north side and southwest side.
6 Gitter Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. was
7 listed as a subcontractor on this permit. This
8 permit also included an installation of a stem
9 wall. Brownie Structural Movers' contract with
10 Mr. and Mrs. Gervais was for a total of $79,600,
11 which has been paid.
12 It was found that unpermitted interior work
13 had been completed, including framing and
14 electrical. Upon interview with Mr. John Schneider
15 on February 11th of 2022, he admitted to doing the
16 framing and electrical work. Mr. Schneider claimed
17 that he believes he's allowed to do electrical work
18 as long as he is not tying into live electricity.
19 Mr. John Schneider has a state license
20 certified residential contractor License No.
21 CRC1331130. Under his license, Mr. Schneider is
22 not qualified to perform any electrical work as
23 specified by the Florida Department of Business and
24 professional regulations. This type of work is
25 required to be subcontracted.
Page 53
1 The subcontractor agreement emailed to me by
2 Mr. Schneider with the subcontractor name of FTL
3 Electrical Services, Inc. was never submitted to
4 the permitting department. FTL Electrical
5 Services, Inc. did not perform this work. This was
6 admitted by Mr. John Schneider.
7 A rough in of plumbing work, which is listed
8 on the invoice dated on April 17, 2019 under Gitter
9 Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. was completed by
10 Coastal Plumbing Services, Inc. The cost build by
11 invoice from business owner of Coast Plumbing
12 Services, Inc. Mr. Tim Nelson, to Mr. John
13 Schneider of Gitter Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc.
14 was $1,000. Upon phone interview, with Mr. Nelson,
15 he admitted to doing the work; however, claimed
16 that he filled out a subcontracting agreement with
17 Mr. John Schneider, Gitter Done Home Maintenance,
18 TC, Inc. This agreement was never turned into the
19 Permitting Department.
20 Upon investigation, it was found that Gitter
21 Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. violated St. Lucie
22 County Code 1067(3). Disregards and violates an
23 applicable state or local building regulation, or
24 law.
25 John Schneider, Gitter Done Home Maintenance
15 (Pages 54 to 57)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
Page 54
1 TC, Inc. did install a floor system per issued
2 Building Permit No. 1904-0240; however exceeded the
3 scope of the permit by contracting the interior
4 walls and running a rough in of electrical, which
5 he is unlicensed to perform.
6 St. Lucie County 10-67(11), proceeds on any
7 construction job without first obtaining and
8 posting the required permits including but not
9 limited to building permits and environmental
10 regulations permits and scheduling required
11 inspections.
12 As previously mentioned, during my inspections
13 on January 13th of 2022, it was found that
14 unpermitted electrical work had been included
15 including framing and electrical. Upon interview
16 with Mr. Schneider on February 11th of 2022, he
17 admitted to doing the framing and electrical work.
18 The only permits found issued for this
19 property is Permit No. 1904-0240 for elevating the
20 structure out of a flood zone and Permit No.
21 2112-0201 for -- is issued for a metal roof.
22 St. Lucie County Code 106712 for exceeding the
23 scope of work which a contractor has been licensed
24 to perform. Mr. John Schneider, certified
25 residential contractor License No. CRC1331130
Page 55
1 currently does have an active license through the
2 Florida Department of Business and Professional
3 Regulations. He is currently on hold with the
4 County as current insurance has not been submitted.
5 According to DBPR, the scope of Mr. Schneider's
6 license is as follows: A residential contractor's
7 scope of services is limited to construction,
8 remodeling, repair or improvement of a one-family,
9 two-family or three-family residence not exceeding
10 two stories in height and accessory use structures
11 in connection therewith including clearing and
12 grubbing, grading and excavating and other site
13 work for the construction project limited to a lot
14 in which the subject building is located.
15 A residential contractor shall subcontract all
16 electrical, mechanical, plumbing, roofing, sheet
17 metal, swimming pool and air conditioning work. A
18 residential contractor should not be required to
19 subcontractor the installation or repair made under
20 warranty of wood shingles, wood shakes or asphalt
21 or fiberglass shingle roofing materials on a new
22 building of his or her own construction.
23 Florida Statute No. 489.113(3) stipulates that
24 a contractor shall subcontract all electrical,
25 mechanical, plumbing, roofing, sheet metal,
Page 56
1 swimming pool and air conditioning work unless such
2 contractor holds a state certificate of
3 registration in the respective trade or category.
4 Based upon the facts of this case, Staff is
5 recommending that the Board, number one, suspend
6 the permitting privileges for Mr. John Schneider,
7 Gitter Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc. for a period
8 not to exceed 365 days; and number two, require
9 that a written request be made to the Board to
10 reinstate Gitter Done Home Maintenance TC, Inc.
11 Mr. John Schneider's permitting privileges after
12 the one -- year suspension.
13 Staff also recommends that the Board forward a
14 copy of the Board's order to the Florida Department
15 of Business and Professional Regulations and the
16 surrounding municipalities.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cicio, thank you.
18 Mr. Schneider. Does he have to be sworn in
19 again or is he --
20 MS. JOHNSON: Oh, no.
21 MR. CHAIRMAN: We're fine. Mr. Schneider how
22 many homes have you worked on in St. Lucie County?
23 MR. SCHNEIDER: Normally I just do the
24 remodels and repairs. As far as building, I don't
25 try to build new homes. I've been doing remodels
Page 57
1 and repairs, probably 10 or 15 houses.
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: How many permits have you
3 pulled?
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Several. A lot. You can look
5 it up. I don't have it in front of me, but, yeah,
6 you can look it up. I'm always pulling permits.
7 MR. CHAIRMAN: I just -- you're here for the
8 very first time in front of us for a case that,
9 honestly for me, you're a contractor for the last
10 20 years, I just don't understand why you wouldn't
11 follow the policies and procedures for
12 St. Lucie County. I just don't understand it.
13 MR. SCHNEIDER: Like I explained before, sir.
14 I was trying to follow. I was in constant contact
15 with Mr. Durden to make sure that we did this house
16 right, because there was so many errors with the
17 first house.
18 MR. CHAIRMAN: Uh huh.
19 MR. SCHNEIDER: So I had all of the paperwork
20 ready to go. I was trying to appease the customer
21 because of their health issues and demanding I do
22 it. Other than that, I would never have done it.
23 I've never done something illegally in
24 St. Lucie County. I was -- she's got some health
25 issues. I was hearing about it all of the time
16 (Pages 58 to 61)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
Page 58
1 that they need to get this thing going, get the
2 project going, get the project going. I had to
3 wait for the permit -- I mean the plans to get done
4 because of the engineering. I mean, all we had was
5 the plan for the footprint.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Did you schedule Brownie to
7 raise the floor, raise the walls, raise -- raise
8 the building up?
9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Did I schedule them? No.
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: The homeowner did?
11 MR. SCHNEIDER: The homeowner took care of
12 that.
13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
14 MR. SCHNEIDER: I had nothing to do with them
15 doing that except for --
16 MR. CHAIRMAN: You were first contracted
17 April 17, 2019, based on what this invoice and
18 proposal says?
19 MR. SCHNEIDER: That we -- we went through
20 back then at that time what we thought would be
21 appropriate costs in 2019. Yes, sir.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. So you were engaged in
23 2019?
24 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, sir.
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: So three years ago.
Page 59
1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. We just lifted up
2 another house on Midway Road that -- you know,
3 that's where we basically --
4 MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand. I understand.
5 So it was under your recommendation for Brownie
6 basically at the end of the day or was that the
7 homeowner that --
8 MR. SCHNEIDER: No, it was the homeowner.
9 They actually -- I think Brownie, they were looking
10 to raise their house and they used to always come
11 by the house that I raised off of Midway Road and
12 checked everything out and see how it was going and
13 so forth. And that's how they turned around and
14 got me and asked me if I would do their house.
15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Silly question, why did
16 you start work without a permit?
17 MR. SCHNEIDER: Again, the only reason I did
18 that, sir, was because I was trying to appease the
19 homeowners, because I have it here in a text where
20 they're demanding me to do this and I kept telling
21 them I don't have the permit. I'm waiting for this
22 piece of paper, that piece of paper, and the
23 engineer to give me a certified copy of the papers
24 and the mechanicals.
25 So Mr. Durden and I had talked and he said,
Page 60
1 Don't -- don't bring me half of it. Just bring me
2 the whole packet once you get it. So basically I
3 had just got the whole packet the day that -- that
4 they basically said if you're not over here then
5 we'll get somebody else that will.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: And this was summer in 2021,
7 late 2021?
8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. It happened like, I
9 want to say, October, November.
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
11 MR. SCHNEIDER: So it took -- it took Brownie
12 over a year, you know, to do their stuff. By the
13 time they got contracted with them to do this and
14 do that, to raise the house up, and then they had
15 problems because the concrete -- the stem wall,
16 when they lifted the house up, you know, they cut
17 it all around to lift the house up, the stem wall
18 you could just crumple it because it had gotten wet
19 so many times, so they had to build a whole new
20 stem wall around the house, which took them a
21 longer time to do so --
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
23 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know. That's the only
24 reason. I mean, we don't do that. I've never been
25 in trouble doing that stuff before. I was just
Page 61
1 trying to appease the homeowner to try to get them
2 as far ahead so that when the permit finally came
3 out I could get that stuff done, get my A/C stuff
4 done, and then we noticed of course that the roof
5 was leaking like a sieve when we finally demo'd it.
6 So we ended up stopping anyway because we had to
7 have the roof fixed. There was no sense in trying
8 to do anything. You know, like I said, we had the
9 windows on order. I got an A/C guy that was, you
10 know, has a -- you know, a subcontractor who was
11 getting ready to give me a subcontractor agreement.
12 I had everything ready to do. I mean, I do know
13 how to do this. I do know how to pull a permit.
14 It was just my stupidity; that's all I can tell
15 you. It's -- I'm a nice guy. I try to help people
16 out, you know. I've been in this town since 1969.
17 I was a cop here, you know. I pretty much know
18 everybody so I was trying just to -- just to make
19 somebody happy.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Schneider. Does
21 anybody have any questions for Mr. Schneider from
22 the Board?
23 I see that the -- Mr. and Mrs. Gervais are in
24 the audience. Do -- do they want to come up and
25 approach the Board and talk to the Board?
17 (Pages 62 to 65)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
Page 62
1 Mr. Schneider, if you could give them --
2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: -- an opportunity to come up,
4 that'd be great.
5 MS. JOHNSON: Hello.
6 MR. M. GERVAIS: Good morning.
7 MS. JOHNSON: State your name and address for
8 the record please.
9 MR. M. GERVAIS: Michael Gervais. My address
10 is 21 Westwind Street, Marina Del, D-E-L, Rey,
11 R-E-Y, California, 90292. Go ahead, dad.
12 MR. Y. GERVAIS: I'm going to read for you.
13 MR. M. GERVAIS: Well, wait. Hold on. You've
14 gotta get sworn in so --
15 MR. CHAIRMAN: If you can state your name and
16 address, please.
17 MS. JOHNSON: Your name and address.
18 MR. M. GERVAIS: My name is Yves Gervais.
19 MS. JOHNSON: Could you spell that?
20 MR. Y. GERVAIS: G-E-R-V-A-I-S.
21 MS. JOHNSON: Okay. What's your address?
22 MR. Y. GERVAIS: 369 -- well, 3695 S. 25th
23 Street.
24 MS. JOHNSON: Okay.
25 MR. Y. GERVAIS: This is the address being --
Page 63
1 MS. JOHNSON: Okay.
2 MR. Y. GERVAIS: -- raised. Right now I'm
3 staying somewhere else.
4 MS. JOHNSON: Do you affirm to tell the truth,
5 the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
6 MR. Y. GERVAIS: Yes, I do.
7 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you.
8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentleman, good morning. Thank
9 you for being here. I'm assuming, Michael, you're
10 the son?
11 MR. M. GERVAIS: I am yes. Yes.
12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
13 MR. M. GERVAIS: Yes. And I'd like to address
14 the Board first.
15 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
16 MR. M. GERVAIS: You know, I'm not here in my
17 capacity as a lawyer. I'm here in my capacity as a
18 son who is deeply troubled about the situation my
19 parents are facing, and they're facing the
20 situation because of John Schneider from Gitter
21 Done. My parent's house was flooded in 2017 during
22 Hurricane Irma, there was a storm surge. They had
23 about 3 feet of water in their house. This led
24 them to explore a way to elevate their house, which
25 is why they contacted Brownie.
Page 64
1 Now, we are in 2022, almost five years since
2 their home was flooded. They currently are unable
3 to live in their home. They are renting a spare
4 bedroom from a relative. They have their pets with
5 my sister about two hours away, their dogs. They
6 don't have access to their own laundry. They don't
7 have access to their own kitchen. When their
8 children or grandchildren come to visit, they don't
9 have a place for them to stay here in Fort Pierce,
10 in St. Lucie County. Instead of living in their
11 home and enjoying their retirement, they are
12 dealing with this mess that has become a nightmare
13 for them. I honestly don't know when they'll be
14 able to return to live in their home because it has
15 been red tagged. The work that Mr. Schneider
16 performed has not been up to standard. It was not
17 permitted. They are now having to find people who
18 can do that work and get it done in the correct
19 way.
20 This is obviously not what you hope for or
21 aspire to in your retirement, and for the privilege
22 for this, John Schneider and Gitter Done emptied my
23 parent's retirement accounts. He charged them -- I
24 think they paid over $100,000 to this man and his
25 company for a house -- and you can see the
Page 65
1 pictures -- that is essentially framing and
2 subflooring and a little bit of electrical and a
3 little bit of plumbing, but that's about it.
4 I went by the property yesterday and it's just
5 very devastating for me to see as a -- as a son.
6 There's no HVAC, no insulation, no walls, no
7 finishings, there's no kitchen, there's no
8 bathrooms, none of that work has been completed.
9 Now, John Schneider and Gitter Done used his
10 license as a -- in this county as a general
11 contractor to prey on my parents. He abused the
12 privilege of his license, and he should have it
13 suspended immediately so that no other family has
14 to experience what my parents have experienced.
15 This experience has taken a financial and emotional
16 and even a physical toll on my parents. As
17 Mr. Schneider alluded to, my mom has had some
18 health effects, the stress and anxiety of this
19 landed her in the hospital. She spent 10 days in
20 the hospital in August having a heart attack. At
21 the time, I spoke with Mr. Schneider, and he did
22 the same thing he did before this Board, which is
23 attempt to come off as a nice guy who's trying to
24 help out my parents.
25 I mean, it's two years. My parents are living
18 (Pages 66 to 69)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
Page 66
1 in somebody's bedroom. He's pointed the finger at
2 everybody but himself. He pointed the finger at
3 Paul Welch. He pointed the finger at COVID. At no
4 point did he take responsibility for his own
5 actions.
6 Now, I think in the earlier hearing the
7 Chairman said that he used the Board's
8 responsibility as holding people to account and so
9 I would ask that this Board -- I implore the Board
10 to hold John Schneider and Gitter Done accountable
11 and exercise the maximum penalty that's within your
12 power so that he cannot take advantage of other
13 families in this community. With that, I'll let my
14 dad speak to any questions that you have. I think
15 he also wanted to read the exact text message that
16 he sent to John Schneider.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Michael.
18 MR. Y. GERVAIS: Well, actually, I'm going to
19 read to you the -- he kept giving me excuses.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: If can you get a little closer
21 to the mic so that way they can hear you please,
22 thank you.
23 MR. Y. GERVAIS: John kept giving me excuses
24 after excuses, you know, why the job is not being
25 done. There was a point that he spent five months
Page 67
1 without anything being done and -- so eventually,
2 you know, when my wife, my wife was really
3 seriously having anxiety all of the time until she
4 had the heart attack, you know, and I sent him an
5 email saying, John, it is raining like you
6 predicted, but where are those people who are
7 supposed to be working here? Look, if you don't
8 want to finish the project, let us know so we can
9 have some -- someone else. I can't lose my
10 (inaudible) every time she get upset. No excuse
11 acceptable at this point.
12 The next thing you know he answered, No
13 problem. Let's settle up and I'll give you all the
14 paperwork and contact, and that's it and he quit,
15 which created anxiety for my wife, you know,
16 because, you know, we're thinking, you know, my
17 goodness, we hired this guy to finish the work
18 and -- but I can tell he did not want to finish the
19 project because I kept asking him -- like when they
20 started -- they started -- he bought a certain
21 number of wood for the subfloor and they have some
22 extra, some more wood than they're supposed to --
23 to have, and I counted that amount of wood would be
24 at least -- almost like $9,000. So when I asked
25 him, you know, So what are you going to do with
Page 68
1 this wood? Are you going to return it? He said,
2 No, we'll give you 3,000 --
3 MR. M. GERVAIS: Dollars.
4 MR. Y. GERVAIS: -- we'll give you $3,000 as
5 a -- as a --
6 MR. M. GERVAIS: Credit.
7 MR. Y. GERVAIS: -- as a credit. And I said,
8 Wait a minute. What do you mean 3,000, this wood
9 costs almost $9,000? And said -- he started
10 getting pissed off and, Okay, we will -- we will
11 deal with it. And after a while I mention, Well,
12 listen from all the work you're supposed to be
13 doing, you only did the subfloor and the framing
14 and nothing's been done and this is almost like
15 $102,000. So at this point, you know, he decided
16 he didn't want to do -- to finish the work because
17 I was asking question about, you know, where all
18 this money went to, you know. And he started doing
19 all kind of illegal things, like, the dumpsters.
20 He kept filling -- he had some kind of a job doing
21 the windows, and every time he finished with those
22 windows, the old one he just come and dump them in
23 the dumpster and I'm supposed to be paying for it,
24 which I didn't like, you know. I mentioned to him
25 several time. As a matter of fact, the last two
Page 69
1 dumpsters, they didn't have nothing of mine there
2 but still he demanded to be paid. And this is the
3 kind of thing. I didn't really like this kind of
4 situation so this is why I sent him the email
5 saying, you know, you have to be doing the job
6 because you've been at it almost three years, but
7 he was more interested in doing the window job than
8 doing my house. And you only have 2 people doing
9 the whole thing.
10 Now, my wife and I, we took on a builder and
11 we find out, you know, that a lot of this thing
12 from -- from the beginning, he didn't have any
13 license for them. He didn't take any permit -- I
14 mean, no license. He didn't have any permits for
15 them, you know, so he practically -- I think is --
16 he's not qualified to be a contractor.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Gervais.
18 This Board does not deal with any civil matter
19 and/or monies, so we can only deal with what we
20 have in front of us --
21 MR. Y. GERVAIS: I understand.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: -- with respect to contractor
23 licensing. I think Staff did an amazing job of
24 putting all of the documentation and information
25 together. And, Michael, I appreciate you being
19 (Pages 70 to 73)
323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
Page 70
1 here in the capacity as a son for your father and
2 your mother. I don't have any questions for you
3 guys.
4 If the Board has any questions for Michael
5 and/or Mr. Gervais?
6 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Mr. Chairman, I'm looking
7 for the total contract amount from Mr. Schneider
8 from the beginning. Okay. So I really got a
9 question for Mr. Harvey, which would be the issue
10 of renovation license. What was the value of this
11 building? I know that there's a certain amount of
12 renovation that can be done before a building is
13 considered abandoned -- not abandoned, but
14 unrepairable and unable to bring up to code. So
15 his -- we were at $123,000 here. It seems the
16 market -- the just market on it was $126,000.
17 MR. HARVEY: Doug Harvey, Building Official.
18 This is a case where the work is actually
19 considered a level 3 alteration under the existing
20 buildings volume. As a level 3 alteration, which
21 would exceed 50 percent of the floor area, then
22 what we received is a set of plans that were what
23 we need to have is a full set of plans that showed
24 the electrical, the mechanical, the plumbing, any
25 of the building components that are going to be
Page 71
1 done and it needs to be in full compliance with the
2 addition of the building code on which date the
3 application is submitted. I believe what you're
4 referring to is a condemnation --
5 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes.
6 MR. HARVEY: -- and there is -- there is
7 criteria if a structure is going to be condemned.
8 However, if someone wishes to renovate it and
9 rehabilitate a structure, we do our best to work
10 with them. It's up to the owner to make the --
11 determine if the cost is worth the return.
12 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay.
13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
14 MR. NEILL: Mr. Leonard? Richard Neill,
15 attorney. Because of the order in which we've
16 proceeded and thinking about due process, before
17 you close the taking of any further evidence, it
18 would be appropriate to offer the contractor an
19 opportunity to respond to what has been presented
20 in addition. I mean, essentially, he's -- he's the
21 accused. The case has been made. He's had a
22 response, additional information has been
23 presented, and just keeping us straight it would be
24 best at least offering the opportunity to respond.
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Neill, I
Page 72
1 appreciate that, and if the Board doesn't have any
2 more questions for Michael or Mr. Gervais, we'll go
3 ahead -- we're completed? Okay.
4 Mr. Schneider, would you like to come back up
5 here and address the Board?
6 MR. SCHNEIDER: As you heard him say, you
7 know, he wanted me to keep doing the work. I have
8 nothing against those people at all. They're good
9 people for the most part, and I'd hope to play ping
10 pong together. There was not any attempt to
11 defraud or do anything. The original kind of
12 agreement or, you know, estimate was in 2019. The
13 prices have soared in 2021. I mean, a sheet of
14 plywood went for $95 a sheet rather than $34 a
15 sheet. All of the receipts, all of the stuff that
16 we bought, everything that was done was handed to
17 Mr. Gervais at no upcharge, no contractor fee. It
18 was the way we were working it because of the costs
19 going up and everything was a time and material.
20 So every time I bought something they got the
21 receipt and that's what they got billed for.
22 Again, I had to stop working because I did not
23 have a permit, and I didn't want to keep going.
24 You heard him say, I wanted something to be done on
25 the house. I can't do it until I get all the plans
Page 73
1 back from everything. Yes, I take responsibility
2 for this house. I take responsibility for my
3 reputation. Like I said, I've been here forever.
4 A lot of people know me.
5 I'm not in any way, shape or form to ever try
6 to scam anybody. This is my first complaint, and
7 the only time it can -- the only reason, in my
8 eyes, they came and complained is because I left.
9 I was doing everything they wanted me to do, even
10 though it was illegal, it was against all rules. I
11 was trying to appease them. If I got questions on
12 anything, building or whatever -- I spoke to
13 Mr. Harvey several times on a building matter of
14 how he wanted me to handle this or how we're going
15 to do things, because I wanted to make sure that
16 I'm clear and did everything on it.
17 I'd help them if they wanted me to come back
18 and help them. I got no problem with them. My
19 deal is that I just couldn't go any further than
20 what they wanted me to do. I mean, they wanted me
21 to cut concrete, get some poured -- we went from an
22 eight-foot ceiling in a normal house to a ten. So
23 now the bottom of the window openings are right
24 here so -- and his -- Mr. Gervais, trying to help,
25 he filled all of that stuff with concrete. So he'd
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323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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1 mix-up some concrete and fill it. Well, now I
2 gotta cut that so that -- you can't have it over 40
3 inches tall for an escape to get out, you know, for
4 egress. So I had to cut all of that stuff down. I
5 didn't do any of that stuff because, again, then,
6 I'm drawing it. I had the building official, not
7 Mr. Harvey, but I've had several other of the
8 inspectors come by when I was working on there and
9 I did tell them what I was doing and they
10 understood. I'm not going to throw them under the
11 bus, but I knew what I was doing was shady to a
12 point, if you want to classify that, but, again, I
13 was trying to help those people out. I had no way,
14 shape, or form trying to do it. If I was trying to
15 avoid it, I wouldn't have even showed up here or
16 anything. It's just what it is, is what it is. I
17 mean, he said if I don't want to do the work then
18 he'll find somebody else, and I just can't commit
19 to doing anymore work on that house until I had the
20 permit stuff done so I could give it into the
21 permit department and that's where it stood.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Schneider. And
23 make no mistake, we take taking someone's license
24 and/or suspending their permit privileges very
25 serious. This is your livelihood. This is how you
Page 75
1 put food on the table and a roof over your head.
2 So I want to make sure you understand that, and
3 everybody understands, that this is a very serious
4 matter. You know, taking into account that this is
5 your first offense being here for as long as you
6 have been, it's unfortunate that this certain --
7 this case has come in front of us. I look at this
8 case as the majority of it as a civil matter and
9 not so much as a licensure matter with respect to
10 everything else that's going on that, and that's a
11 whole nother -- whole nother day for that. We can
12 only see what's in front of us based on what you
13 did and performed in St. Lucie County and what
14 Staff has brought in front of us. So I appreciate
15 you being here, Mr. Schneider.
16 MR. SCHNEIDER: No problem.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: Does anybody on the Board have
18 any questions for Mr. Schneider.
19 MR. JERGER: One question, Chair.
20 Mr. Schneider --
21 MR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
22 MR. JERGER: -- before we decide to make our
23 decision, have you received enough money, if you
24 have the correct permits, once you get them, to
25 complete their house if they allow you back on
Page 76
1 their property?
2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Have I received enough to
3 complete the house?
4 MR. JERGER: Yes, sir.
5 MR. SCHNEIDER: No, sir.
6 MR. JERGER: Because apparently these pictures
7 here, the house is less than 25 percent done.
8 MR. SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
9 MR. JERGER: Have you -- have you received
10 enough from them to complete the house if they
11 allow you back on their property so we can get this
12 squared away between the both of them?
13 MR. SCHNEIDER: No, sir. Like I said, all of
14 the things that we've had to buy, I've given them
15 the receipts and listed them on an invoice for them
16 every single time. The only thing I've made on
17 this house is basically labor. I ordered their
18 windows at cost for them. I went and got the
19 supplies at cost for them. And that's what I was
20 trying to do to help them. I'm not trying to get
21 rich off of them, although I do have to make some
22 money, but we were just supplying basically the
23 labor.
24 One of the reasons that it kind of stalled was
25 they were arguing about if they were going to put a
Page 77
1 fireplace in or not put a fireplace in. So I sent
2 them the two quotes to put a fireplace in and for
3 two weeks I heard nothing. So that's another thing
4 of why a permit wasn't done, because if I had to
5 put a fireplace in, then I had to take the plans
6 back over and have them draw it or I got to redo
7 the whole, the whole set. So there was a lot of
8 issues going on.
9 The time and material stuff is what we had
10 agreed on talking because of the price of
11 fluctuation going up. If I was to do it cost plus
12 or whatever, it's -- everything's going up and
13 down, so I mean -- I'm only getting -- I'm also a
14 PDT distributor in windows and doors. I can only
15 guarantee a quote for like 20 days right now.
16 That's all they're allowing us to guarantee a
17 quote, because there's a fluctuation of metal and
18 glass and supplies. So in 15 days if you don't
19 order that window and door, I have to requote it.
20 It's the same with lumber right now. It went from,
21 like I said, 25, $30 a sheet to 95, $100 a sheet at
22 one time. So it's fluctuating. So, you know,
23 that's -- that's just the way we're trying to work
24 it. You know, unfortunately, like I said, that's
25 just -- it just took time to try to get all the
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1 paperwork with everything going on, and I just
2 could not complete anymore work. I'm already in
3 trouble for doing this. If I did anymore, then I'd
4 be already in trouble -- more trouble. And again,
5 like I said, I was just trying to help them. I'm
6 in trouble. Just -- I'll take whatever you want to
7 give me. It's just that it's unfortunate.
8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Does anybody have any other
9 questions of Mr. Schneider?
10 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Mr. Schneider, how many
11 other counties do you work in?
12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, geez. I do everything
13 from Ponte Vedra, Viera, Tallahassee -- I mean,
14 Jacksonville to -- I've gone to the Keys, to Tampa
15 to Orlando. You know, my reputation -- I don't do
16 any advertising at all. My reputation is me. So
17 people refer me to me to me. I'm actually doing a
18 historical house for West Palm Beach right now
19 where we're gutting it and remodeling it and, you
20 know, we have to do it historically. And of
21 course, I've had to go through the historical board
22 down there. So I've never had any problems. I've
23 never had a complaint. I've never had anything in
24 the whole state of Florida.
25 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Do you have any Staff
Page 79
1 recommendation?
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. DiFrancesco, the Staff
3 recommendation was to suspend the permitting
4 privileges for John Schneider and/or Gitter Done
5 Home Maintenance TC for a period not to exceed 365
6 days and a copy of the Board's order be forwarded
7 to the Florida Department of Business and
8 Professional Regulations and surrounding
9 municipalities.
10 MS. BARBIERI: And Mr. Leonard, Assistant
11 County Attorney Katherine Barbieri. I think
12 Mr. Cicio verbally also requested that there be a
13 written request to reinstate. He added that after.
14 It's not part of the written.
15 MR. CHAIRMAN: I apologize. I'm just reading
16 what I have in front of me.
17 MS. BARBIERI: I understand that. When he
18 said it, too, I had to write it down. I realized
19 it wasn't on the paper.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: So coming from the Board to be
21 reinstated --
22 MS. BARBIERI: Yes, sir.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: -- request to be reinstated?
24 Okay.
25 MR. NEILL: Mr. Leonard -- and if I may, in
Page 80
1 case it's helpful, the things to be considered in
2 addition to the facts that have been presented are
3 the gravity of the violation, the impact of the
4 violation on public health, welfare and safety,
5 actions taken by the violator to correct the
6 violation, any previous violations by the violator,
7 and any other evidence presented at the hearing by
8 the parties that are relevant to a sanction
9 appropriate for the case.
10 I don't know if that helps, but that is you
11 know, the general considerations, and I would
12 suggest that when a motion is made, if it is to
13 penalize Mr. Schneider, to make -- make the
14 findings that support it, and I can talk further on
15 that if need be.
16 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Neill.
17 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
18 make a motion.
19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. DiFrancesco.
20 MR. DIFRANCESCO: I'd like to make a motion to
21 suspend the permitting privileges for
22 John Schneider and/or Gitter Done Maintenance for a
23 period not to exceed 365 days. I do not feel,
24 because it is his first time, that a copy of the
25 Board's order should be forwarded to the Florida
Page 81
1 Department of Business and Regulation.
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: And Staff had also recommended
3 that he request to be reinstated from the Board?
4 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes. He needs to request to
5 be reinstated in front of the Board.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: So just to clarify, your motion
7 is to take Staff's recommendation, less the
8 forwarding of the letter to the DBPR?
9 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes.
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. DiFrancesco. We
11 have a motion. Do I have a second?
12 MR. NEILL: Mr. Chair, could I have just a
13 moment. I think the regulation may require the
14 reporting, but let me try to find that or maybe
15 Staff could point us to that.
16 MS. BARBIERI: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Assistant
17 County Attorney Katherine Barbieri. Under 489, it
18 requires that it be forwarded, but that you can
19 have a recommendation of no action be taken.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: So --
21 MS. BARBIERI: And we can find -- we'll have
22 to find it, if you want the statute. So you can --
23 we -- they -- it requires that it be forwarded. If
24 a local agency makes a decision of disciplinary, it
25 is required that it be forwarded up there.
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1 MR. CHAIRMAN: But we can also -- we can state
2 that no action be taken?
3 MS. BARBIERI: Yes, sir. That you don't want
4 them to take any action.
5 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Are we talking about no
6 action to be taken as far as --
7 MR. CHAIRMAN: From the DBPR.
8 MR. DIFRANCESCO: From the DBPR.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Board doesn't recommend any
10 action be taken from the DBPR being it's his first
11 offense.
12 MR. DIFRANCESCO: I can accept that.
13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. DiFrancesco. We
14 have a motion. Do I have a second?
15 MR. NEILL: Before we have a second, may I --
16 may I suggest that the motion include just the
17 basic findings that he did perform work that was
18 beyond his license and that he did perform work
19 that was unpermitted? Just for the -- for the
20 record.
21 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Okay. I'd like to make a
22 motion to accept Staff's recommendation that
23 Mr. John Schneider, under Gitter Done Home
24 Maintenance TC, Inc., did in fact not pull a permit
25 before starting the job.
Page 83
1 I'd like to suspend his permitting privileges
2 for not less than -- not more than 365 days.
3 Excuse me. He should be -- request to be
4 reinstated in front of this Board. I would say
5 that the -- if the copy of the Board's order will
6 be forwarded to the Department of Business and
7 Professional Regulation, that this Board
8 recommended that no action be taken.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. DiFrancesco.
10 MR. NEILL: And I'm sorry to be a pain over
11 here.
12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Neill, you and I are going
13 to have a long conversation.
14 MR. NEILL: But the Staff recommendation was
15 for the suspension not to exceed 365. Is
16 Mr. DiFrancesco saying that the penalty should be
17 365?
18 MR. DIFRANCESCO: No, it says not to exceed
19 365 days.
20 MR. NEILL: Well. So how many days is that?
21 MR. DIFRANCESCO: 364 days if that -- that
22 stops you.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion, do I hear a
24 second?
25 MR. JERGER: I'll second it.
Page 84
1 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion by
2 Mr. DiFrancesco, a second by Mr. Jerger. Do we
3 have a discussion about the motion? Does everyone
4 understand?
5 Madam Secretary, would you please take a voice
6 vote.
7 MS. JOHNSON: Mrs. Taylor?
8 MRS. TAYLOR: No, ma'am.
9 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Sampson?
10 MR. SAMPSON: No, ma'am.
11 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. DiFrancesco?
12 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Yes, ma'am.
13 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Jerger?
14 MR. JERGER: Yes, ma'am.
15 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Langel?
16 MR. LANGEL: Yes, ma'am.
17 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Leonard?
18 MR. LEONARD: Yes, ma'am.
19 MS. JOHNSON: Mr. Pride?
20 MR. PRIDE: No, ma'am.
21 MS. JOHNSON: It passed 4 to 3.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schneider, thank you for
23 being here. Staff thank you. Mr. Neill, thank you
24 for keeping us in check. I greatly appreciate
25 that. Do we have any old business to attend? Do
Page 85
1 we have any new business?
2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Under New Business we
3 were going to do the annual presentation of
4 contractor licensing, but we will do that at the
5 next meeting and I apologize.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: That works.
7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you.
8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Can I have a motion
9 to adjourn the meeting at 10:00 a.m.?
10 MR. DIFRANCESCO: Second.
11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion to adjourn.
12 MR. LANGEL: Motion to adjourn.
13 MR. CHAIRMAN: A motion and a seconded.
14 Adjourn.
15 (Concluded at 10:00 A.M.)
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323c8a4d-50ed-4b03-8b25-67c8629298eaElectronically signed by Karen M. Bellemare (301-293-169-3900)
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1 STATE OF FLORIDA )
:SS
2 COUNTY OF ST. LUCIE )
3
4 CERTIFICATE
5 I, KAREN M. BELLEMARE, FPR, a Shorthand
6 Reporter, certify that the foregoing transcript,
7 Pages 1 through 85 inclusive, was transcribed from
8 an audio recording that was provided by
9 St. Lucie County. The transcript is a true and
10 accurate transcription to the best of my ability.
11 I certify further I am neither attorney nor
12 counsel for, nor related to, nor employed by any of
13 the parties to the action, and further, that I am
14 not a relative or an employee of any party in this
15 action, nor am I financially interested in the
16 outcome of this action.
17 Dated this 2nd day of June, 2022.
18
19 _________________________
20 Karen M. Bellemare, FPR
21
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Reporter 86:6
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transcription 86:10
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trouble 60:25 78:3
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3 10:25 22:8 49:13
63:23 70:19,20
84:21
3,000 68:2,4,8
30 7:21 9:8 10:24
12:16 14:6 15:18
17:13 18:25 24:4
24:8 36:8 47:13
47:15 77:21
301 36:18
30th 8:3
34 72:14
34950 1:22
34982 1:11
34984 36:19
36 19:6
364 83:21
365 56:8 79:5 80:23
83:2,15,17,19
369 62:22
3695 33:7,10,14
48:18,23 50:16,18
51:19 62:22
3rd 9:2 36:3
4
4 12:17 49:15 84:21
4,200 16:4
40 74:2
4370 12:18,21
45,000 21:2
4640 9:9,13
4680 11:1,5
4851 7:17,20
489 81:17
489.113(3)55:23
4th 11:4
5
5 14:8 49:15
5,000 11:11
50 70:21
500 35:16 47:12
5th 9:25 11:18 13:9
14:21 16:16
6
6 15:19 49:19
6,000 11:11
6,500 9:17
60 18:25 24:5 28:8
28:9 32:12,13,15
602 15:21,24
606 14:9,13
7
7 33:3 39:21 49:21
772-464-2664 1:23
7726 16:1
79,280 51:10
79,600 34:20 51:4
52:10
8
8 7:19 9:10,11,15
49:22
8:30 1:9
84 51:13
85 86:7
8th 8:21 10:18
12:10 14:1 15:12
17:8
9
9 9:12 11:3
9,000 8:1 67:24
68:9
9,200 49:18
9,500 12:25
9,621 33:24 49:19
90 24:9,17
90292 62:11
95 72:14 77:21
9th 10:17 12:9,20
13:25 15:11 17:7
50:2,9