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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes 04-18-2008 St. Lucie County Agricultural Development Steering Committee Minutes 1 2300 Virginia Avenue 2 Administration Building 3 Growth Management Conference Room Number 1 4 April 18, 2008 5 9:00AM 6 7 An audio recording of this meeting, in its entirety, has been placed in the file along with 8 these minutes as part of the record. In the event of a conflict between the written minutes 9 and the audio recording, the audio recording shall control. 10 11 CALL TO ORDER 12 13 Mr. Corrick called the meeting to order around 9:03 AM 14 15 Roll Call: 16 17 Agricultural Development Steering Committee Members 18 19 Dennis G. Corrick.................Chair, At Large Member 20 H. M. Ridgely III..................Vice - Chair, Indian River Citrus League 21 Diane Andrews.....................At Large Member 22 Peter Harrison.......................At Large Member 23 Robert J. Johnson.................Farm Credit of South Florida 24 Joseph G. Miller...................Commissioner Smith Appointee 25 Chuck Olson.........................Commissioner Coward Appointee 26 Jim Russakis.........................Cattlemen’s Association 27 Chris Smith..........................Commissioner Craft Appointee 28 Pete Spyke............................Owner of less than 160 Acres 29 Matthew L. Wynne...............Owner of more than 160 Acres 30 Committee Members Absent: 31 32 Mike Dahan..........................St. Lucie County Conservation Alliance 33 Ed Lounds............................Commissioner Grande Appointee 34 Gary Roberts........................At Large Member 35 Roland Yee...........................Commissioner Lewis Appointee 36 Staff Members Present 37 38 Michelle Hylton ...................Senior Staff Assistant 39 Others Present 40 41 Jonathan Ferguson................Member of the public 42 Craig Linton.........................Member of the public 43 Mr. Corrick 44 mentioned that the members of the commission are at liberty to replace 45 members of the committee if they have three absences. 46 Page 1 of 10 The committee reviewed the video of the Board of County Commissioners’ meeting from 1 April 8, 2008. 2 3 REVIEW OF MINUTES FROM MARCH 28, 2008 4 5 Mr. Corrick 6 asked that Commissioner Grande’s comment calling the committee “rich Ms. Andrews 7 old men” be added for the record. added he was not listed as being present. Mr. Russakis Ms. Andrews 8 made a motion to approve with Mr. Corrick’s suggestion. Mr. Ridgely 9 seconded. requested the minutes be tabled until next week since substantive 10 changes will be made so the committee should have time to read them. The motion was 11 withdrawn. 12 NEW BUSINESS 13 14 Mr. Corrick 15 said he had proposed that today the committee look at the ag PUD 16 provision and try to work up language for it. He said now it feels like the committee have 17 another interim report and no sunset, but no clearer direction. 18 Dr. Olson 19 asked if there was a reason why Mr. Corrick wants to go on to ag PUD’s as Mr. Corrick 20 opposed to TDR’s. responded the committee’s first charge was to talk about 21 how open space will be interpreted, and he got the impression the Board didn’t think the 22 committee had answered that question. He said he thinks revising something that’s in 23 place, in litigation and that’s the current rule is more pressing than the difficult concept of 24 designing a TDR program, though he thinks that should be part of the recommendation 25 going forward. He said we have all come together on the easy part of taking the credits 26 off; Dr. Nicholas’ presentation says don’t expect you won’t have tremendous resistance 27 to where ever those credits are put in place. The hard part is where they land, and the 28 economics of the whole thing so that you design it the way it’s not doomed to fail. If the 29 committee looks at the ag PUD portion of the ordinances, we may want to go back to the 30 Board and say we need more time, or a consultant, or something. 31 Dr. Olson 32 said he will argue for the opposite. He thinks TDR’s is where the committee 33 should go next. He added he saw commissioners on both sides of the issue look to some 34 attempt at TDR as being a resolution. If we’re looking for a solution, he thinks TDR is 35 the way to go. He said if the committee took the first step at establishing a framework, 36 and take it back to the commission and said they’re going to spend 9 months getting this 37 done, but if the commission doesn’t have the political courage to implement it, we should 38 just stop right now. 39 Mr. Corrick 40 said there is another issue beyond political courage; by definition, if the 41 County Commission is making the decision, they are going to land in the unincorporated 42 areas of St. Lucie County; they don’t have the power to have them land in a municipality. 43 They don’t have the power to have them land in a municipality without a completely 44 different governing body weighing in. 45 Mr. Russakis 46 said he agrees with Dr. Olson; he thinks the committee should go the TDR Page 2 of 10 1 route because it sounds like both sides [of the commission vote] would like to go in that 2 direction. He asked of Mr. Corrick or Mr. Ferguson: Has DCA mandated clustering at 3 any time? 4 Mr. Corrick Mr. Ferguson 5 yielded the question to Mr. Ferguson. said “mandate” is 6 probably strong. He doesn’t know that DCA ever “mandates” a particular solution to any 7 perceived issue. They will weigh in on what they think is a reasonable solution or a better 8 solution. They will certainly tell you when they don’t think a solution is going to work. 9 As part of the settlement solution, one of the tools to address sprawl has typically been 10 some form of clustering. 11 Mr. Russakis Mr. Ferguson 12 asked if TDR’s would encourage clustering. responded 13 TDR’s are a tool along with clustering. In his opinion TDR’s themselves do not solve any Mr. Corrick 14 problem. said TDR’s could be used to facilitate clustering. To expand on Mr. Corrick 15 what Mr. Ferguson was saying, said in the guidance we got from DCA, if 16 the Comp Plan requires clustering, then they will look at the LDR’s and see if they’re 17 consistent with the Comp Plan. He added he believes our Comp Plan requires the 18 development of a TDR program, he does not believe it requires clustering. 19 Mr. Spyke 20 said it says in the Committee for a Sustainable Treasure Coast report, that 3 21 things have to happen in order for agriculture to remain in the landscape: 1. It has to be 22 profitable, if we’re not profitable, we don’t want to be saved; 2. You have to have a TDR 23 program, because that’s the only way you can strip off the development value of your 24 land that you want to farm without actually selling the land; 3. The combination of values 25 of those two things have to be equal to or greater than what you could get by selling the 26 land out right. He said a PUD is a TDR. It takes ag land that we all envision as 1 house 27 on 5 acres; and putting that house in the corner so that the 5 acres no longer have 28 development rights. It takes all the development rights off of the 5 acre pieces and 29 clusters them on to 1 or 2 so that the pieces don’t have any. The problem is that it doesn’t 30 help with value because a unit on 5 acres is more valuable than a unit on 1 acre. The 31 burden to achieve greater than or equal property value is on ag profits to make up the 32 difference, but we’re struggling in ag so there is no margin to offset the reduction of 33 value. All of the pieces are in place to meet the goals of the Committee for a Sustainable 34 Treasure Coast; they’re just not being applied right. The current PUD code does nothing 35 to discourage sprawl; a segregated land use is still sprawl; if it’s only houses with 36 shopping and schools somewhere else it is still sprawl. If we’re going to achieve 37 something different, we have to change what’s written. 38 Mr. Corrick 39 presented an example: in straight platting, if Mr. Russakis owns 100 acres 40 in the AG 5 area, with a minimum 5 acre lot size and there are 15 acres of wetlands and 41 you have to put in a road and some drainage, you get 13 lots of your 20. So in the ag 42 PUD, you have your density back, so there is some incentive to go from straight platting 43 to go into the PUD. If you have laser level post-canker citrus, the point may be moot; but 44 if you’ve got things you can’t build on, until you get into a PUD and no longer have that 45 5 acre minimum, you may not realize all of your value. He said what he thought the 46 group was saying was there’s that which gives us certainty, maybe not full density, but Page 3 of 10 1 certainty and ease so that there is a baseline value primarily for lending purposes. The 2 purpose is to make the things that we, the community want more attractive than the things 3 we don’t want while still allowing and preserving the baseline right. Dr. Olson 4 asked Mr. Spyke if making those transferable rights transferable off properties Mr. Spyke 5 will change that algorithm. responded he thinks what everyone is imagining 6 in TDR’s is a large landscape scale approach that allows you aggregate enough units to 7 truly build an urban community. In order to do that, since the units are so thinly 8 distributed over the acres out there, it’s going to take a lot of land to be able to mine 9 enough units to get 2500 or whatever you need for a functional non-sprawl development. 10 He just wanted to point out that TDR’s could be a lot of different things. Dr. Olson 11 said what changes that dilemma with the current status quo is allowing them to 12 be transferred off of your property, to make it work; you would transfer it to piece of 13 property in which its underlying land value is much higher. The appraised value of 14 TDR’s across the country, in direct correlation to what the underlying development land 15 value is, will work. If you just shove it in the corner of your rural piece of property, it 16 doesn’t make a lot of sense, but if you put it on US 1 or by I95, suddenly, it makes a lot 17 of sense. Mr. Spyke 18 said if there were a unit multiplier where we lose the value of each unit by 19 putting the value on a smaller lot, we make that up by adding more units, or encourage 20 additional capital to be available for ag investment on the rest of the land we’re vacating. 21 The consequence of what you do with the units in the place is going to exist as a built 22 environment question; you want to arrange things so that the consequences of sprawl are 23 diminished. The only way to get away from sprawl is to aggregate large enough pieces of 24 land to mine enough units to reach thresholds for compact mixed use internal trip capture 25 developments. Mr. Wynne 26 said to have value out of the TDR’s and make them work, Port St. Lucie and 27 Fort Pierce would have to stop annexing and giving away density. The County 28 Commission would have to be willing to no longer give away density, office space, motel 29 rooms, or industrial space, or this will never work. Mr. Corrick 30 said in failed TDR programs, one thing that sucked the value out of TDR’s 31 was giving out density. The fact that we have 3 growth management plans in a county of 32 275,000 is a big obstacle, and the county only controls a piece of it. Mr. Miller 33 said one of the first questions that should be asked is if the Commission will 34 accept the fact that they need to get involved in a TDR program. The property owners 35 have to establish the floor price, the county has to agree to have a concept in place to 36 agree on the pricing of the TDR’s. They would also have to agree with Mr. Wynne’s 37 suggestion not to give anything away. Mr. Corrick Dr. 38 said the problem is that the county is not the only player in the market. Olson 39 agreed that what the cities of Port St. Lucie or Fort Pierce do will have a direct 40 impact on whatever we do or don’t establish whether or not we have a TDR program, so Page 4 of 10 1 he wouldn’t view that as a deterrent to trying a TDR program. Mr. Wynne 2 said as the cities take up land with Tradition type developments and 3 shopping centers, it enhances the value of agricultural land because now there’s less of it. Dr. Olson 4 said he doesn’t know if we’ll live to see the day because of the recession we’re Mr. Wynne 5 in with respect to the housing market. said it might take a hundred years, but 6 there are people with generations and looking at the seeds they’ve planted. Dr. Olson 7 said the attitudes expressed in that meeting characterizes where the 8 commission is, though the composition of the commission will change fairly soon, 9 strategically, we should look at where we might be able to achieve the gains we’re 10 looking for. He said he thinks TDR’s are the way to go, because the commission will be 11 more receptive than they were to the recommendations in the first element [of the 12 committee’s report]. He thinks in the first approach there is a line in the sand and he sees 13 the TDR as an opportunity to get a 4-1 vote to get what you want in the long run whether 14 it is by amending the ag PUD to allow you to do internally in your land what you want to 15 do; or establishing an external TDR so that you can transfer it to the receiving units. 16 Everyone within 3 miles of the receiving units will be opposed to it, but that’s the 17 condition you should present to the County Commission to understand this is what you 18 will face. Mr. Corrick 19 said right now we have the Rural Land Stewardship program which 20 requires that the sending area and the receiving area be in the rural lands and that is a 21 TDR program that is purely in the rural areas. If they’re going to do something different, 22 they need to talk about the rights landing in the more urban areas. Mr. Spyke 23 He said he thinks the ag PUD was flawed in the beginning and the memo 24 gummed it up worse. He agrees that rescinding the memo doesn’t make what’s left ok. Mr. Wynne 25 agreed and said it was almost better with the memo than you are now, 26 because you know where you were. Mr. Spyke 27 said the fundamental flaws in the ag PUD are retracting the development 28 value of the land and not putting anything back such as opportunities for ag to make 29 money to make up the difference; and the problems with the use of the open space. With 30 the memo out and being able to count yards, the only true open space anyone has any 31 control over is the 35% common open space. He said the ag PUD doesn’t preserve ag 32 land and it takes value away so it is fundamentally flawed, so a place to focus is to make 33 the ag PUD code good in the Comp Plan and the LDR’s. When you get into the TDR 34 stuff, it is going to require money and consultants. As far as the resource of this 35 committee, we should dive into the ag PUD and change the code. TDR’s are the bigger 36 picture, the landscape style stuff. Rural Land Stewardships are an option. 37 Mr. Wynne 38 thinks if the committee saw maps of the last 4 years of development in this 39 area, they would see that almost no development has taken place in St. Lucie County, and 40 all development is either in the city of Fort Pierce or the city of Port Saint Lucie. He 41 thinks it would give an idea of where we will send the TDR’s. 42 Page 5 of 10 Mr. Corrick 1 said if you take the ag PUD plan and make the open space numbers work 2 and they didn’t have to be contiguous, for instance 50 acres inside the urban service line 3 of unincorporated St. Lucie County and 150 acres out west, and the owners strike a 4 private deal where the western land is willing to put an easement on their property and all Mr. 5 the density moves to the 50 acres as a non-contiguous PUD, is that a step forward? Russakis Mr. Corrick Ms. 6 says yes. continued, we would put it in the ag PUD plan. Andrews Mr. Corrick 7 asked if there was another 150 acres would they compete. said 8 yes. 9 Mr. Spyke 10 said in all of the TDR programs that have been proposed, there is always the 11 concept of the “low hanging fruit”. There is always people who feel strongly enough 12 about trying to preserve their land the way it is, that it won’t take much to encourage 13 them to do that. He said to try to save ag, you’ve got to meet the three criteria (from the 14 Committee for a Sustainable Treasure Coast report). In addressing Mr. Wynne’s Mr. Spyke 15 statement of the development and annexation of the cities, said if it were just 16 about money that would be the optimum solution for the western lands, but if we want 17 agriculture in the landscape, we have to solve the problem so that doesn’t happen, and the 18 only way to do that is for us to come out as good as if that happens. 19 Mr. Corrick, 20 returning to his example, said if you have 200 acres, and 40 acres of it is 21 wet, you have less than that, but if you transfer them into a non-contiguous PUD, you get 22 them back. A completely featureless grove has less incentive to do that than land with Dr. Olson 23 resource values. pointed out you can build on wetlands, because over 50% of Mr. Corrick 24 all wetlands have been impacted. said we put in our memo that wetlands 25 should be valuable enough that you want to argue that you have more than the district or 26 the county thinks you do. They should have a value that if you have 20 acres of wetlands, 27 you get 1 ¼ (for example) of what your underlying development rights are if you can 28 prove it’s a wetland and you have some proactive obligation going forward. One thing 29 the committee said would be advantageous was not only to strip the development value 30 from wetlands, but to make an incentive to keep them and keep them viable. 31 Dr. Olson 32 asked if the changes the committee is talking about to the ag PUD could be 33 passed with this commission given how the first set of recommendations were received. Mr. Corrick 34 said he thinks the committee could get three votes. The committee will 35 probably have to compromise a little bit if the goal is to get something that will be 36 approved. 37 Mr. Spyke 38 said where we start and where we finish will never be the same, so if we Mr. Corrick 39 come to a consensus of what has to be done, we have to start there. 40 reminded the group agreeing on the written memo took 3 meetings. 41 Dr. Olson 42 said he thinks his strategy of creating a TDR program that has better reception 43 than tinkering with the ag PUD but make that TDR program supersede the ag and force 44 the changes. He said he thinks a TDR program would achieve exactly what the majority 45 of this committee would want to do. 46 Page 6 of 10 Mr. Corrick 1 said either the TDR is the only way you can develop in the western lands, 2 or we have to fix the ag PUD program. 3 Mr. Russakis 4 said if the county agrees to a TDR program, the receiving areas could be 5 where ever the community would let people put them; and to make it simple, if a 6 landowner wanted to develop AG5 more densely, they could go to another land owner to 7 buy density. He mentioned his charge from the Cattleman’s Association to get the ability 8 for them to extract value out of their land to continue doing what they’re doing. He 9 suggested the county form a development task force for those who want to develop, as 10 this committee wants to preserve, and then let the commission be in the middle and 11 referee how it will come together. 12 Mr. Russakis Mr. Wynne 13 said we have to impose on the county not to give out density. Ms. Andrews 14 agreed. said we would have to codify that. 15 Mr. Corrick 16 said in Alachua County’s report it said there are certain areas you want 17 density and certain areas you want sparsity. Do we want to make it more expensive to 18 build densely in the areas where we want density, or should the county mark the price of 19 that dense development up in proportion to what you want for your density? 20 Mr. Russakis 21 said if the county agreed to stop giving away density, all of the developers 22 would immediately form a committee like this, we would be the ag committee, they 23 would be the development committee, and we could go down this same road together and 24 meet every so often to discuss our problems, and the county commission would be hit 25 with that. 26 Mr. Miller 27 said he thinks the county should be the administrator in a TDR program, and 28 it would force them not to give density away. They would have a bank, and land owners 29 could sell TDR’s to the county. He said he would commit to sell a portion of his TDR’s 30 to the county to bank at 25% down and no interest for 2 years and let the county peddle 31 them to make a deal with a developer to sell them rather than give them away. 32 Mr. Corrick 33 said the county will be the administrator, regardless since they will have to 34 keep track of where the TDR’s came from and where they went. He said he thinks Mr. 35 Miller was saying they should be the “market maker” and he doesn’t think he would go Mr. Wynne 36 there. said if they’re the market maker and they don’t want growth, they will 37 set a bad market. 38 Dr. Olson 39 said the discussions of who would be the “market maker” or “ledger keeper” 40 are all the way environmental banking works the regulatory agencies or government units 41 are “ledger keepers”. They establish the legal framework for the market and make sure 42 the laws, rules and regulations are followed, but they stay out of the private market and it 43 works great. He said if we go the TDR route, every point that was raised about making 44 them work is covered on page 35 (of Dr. Nicholas’ presentation). He says he feels you 45 can make a TDR program that automatically changes the ag PUD’s to what you want and 46 the TDR program is a much more acceptable less offensive thing than the political knee- Page 7 of 10 1 jerk reaction to ag guys who seem to want to get more development on their land, 2 because ag people want to get more value for their land. He continued to numbers 6 & 7 3 on Dr. Nicholas’ report: 4 6. Make TDR Use By Right in Receiving Areas 5 This Counters the Lack of Willingness to Have Increased Density Nearby 6 and Gives Real Use Value to TDR 7 7. Make it All Part of a Comprehensive Plan 8 He said following those guidelines allows the opening for a TDR program to supersede 9 the existing ag PUD requirements that you feel are onerous. If we do the TDR first, we 10 give a friendly ultimatum to the commission saying if they are willing to codify TDR’s 11 they need to be willing to do these things, and if they are unwilling to do it, maybe we 12 default to something else. 13 Mr. Corrick 14 said the concept of taking only the development right was an extremely Dr. Olson 15 difficult concept to grasp in Rural Land Stewardship. said he would argue to 16 make sure it is titled “Transferable Development Rights”. 17 Mr. Corrick Mr. Russakis 18 asked the group for guidance on the next two agendas. asked 19 that we don’t mess up the 8 units and below 160, because it will be a life saver for small Mr. Wynne 20 property owners when you cannot develop without sewer and water. 21 clarified we didn’t take that away, we just suggested to treat the big people like the little 22 people. 23 Mr. Spyke 24 stated there are laws on the books that constitute the framework for 25 development outside the incorporated areas of St. Lucie County. Those laws are 26 confusing and ambiguous, and that’s why we exist, so we should deal with that in the 27 short term or we will lose credibility. He said he encourages everyone to be careful with 28 the county not giving away density because we want the county to give it to us. There 29 aren’t enough units in the rural lands to generate the kind of TDR value we were 30 discussing; the only way we get them is through a density multiplier given to the Mr. Wynne 31 landowner to maintain competitive prices. agreed and said further out west 32 should have more density to sell to people with more valuable land closer to I95 and 33 would make it cheaper for them to buy density and increase the value of their land to 34 developers while preserving the land out west. 35 Mr. Ridgely 36 said he thinks the committee has been shoved in a corner by the county. He 37 said the county is working on the EAR right now and they’re writing new code. They’re 38 changing the Comp Plan and we should be looking at some of the changes. He said he 39 would like to get Growth Management, Peter Jones or someone, come and talk to us 40 about where they are on the EAR process because you cannot get any information out of 41 the county about it, other than a few public meetings which they crammed right next to 42 each other with no time for any rumination. He said he thinks we were formed to talk 43 about open space and the value issue, but it has morphed into exactly what one particular 44 commissioner wants which is for the committee to talk about TDR’s in the corner; even 45 going to go to the TPO and get money to hire consultants. He said the agenda to him is 46 the ag PUD issue because the county will do the TDR’s whether we talk about it or not; Page 8 of 10 1 the TVC has a TDR committee that hasn’t met in over a year. May be long term we will 2 get to the TDR’s, but ag PUD is the most important thing we have to discuss, at least Ms. Andrews 3 that’s what the resolution says. agreed the committee should discuss ag Mr. Ridgely 4 PUD’s, and there was general consensus from the group. added a suggestion 5 that the committee gets Growth Management to talk to the committee about the draft Mr. Corrick 6 EAR. stated he would entertain a motion to have Mr. Ridgely make the Dr. Olson 7 request of Growth Management as vice-chair. asked that Mr. Ridgely also 8 request that they send a senior staff the committee’s meetings. 9 Ms. Andrews 10 suggested the committee send something to the County Commission to see 11 if they are willing to commit themselves to not giving away density because it may 12 impact on how we look at the ag PUD. 13 Mr. Corrick 14 stated the ag PUD is the problem before the county and the committee was Mr. 15 put together because of problems with the ag PUD and that should be our first focus. Russakis 16 asked if we could talk about the ag PUD and see that we would need to fix it or 17 replace it with something that may be TDR’s. 18 Dr. Olson 19 stated that is his only recommendation because it gives it the right veneer by 20 making it part of the discussion. If you lose one of the 3-2 votes in your favor in the 21 coming election, none of the recommendations we have made will see the light of day. 22 The consensuses on both sides of this issue are in a TDR program. 23 Mr. Corrick 24 said a TDR program is going to be complicated; the ag PUD is something 25 we could knock out in 2 meetings. He said we no longer have a sunset so we could be Mr. Spyke 26 here until the cows come home on the TDR issue. added there will be money Mr. Corrick 27 coming from the TPO for the TDR issue. said there may be more money, 28 but that is at least a month down the pike. 29 Dr. Olson 30 asked if we should use that to our advantage since that would help the process 31 when we get to TDR’s. A response to the commission is we are beginning to address 32 TDR’s as the commission expressed their wishes for us to look at this issue, but we 33 would like an official accounting request for that money so that we know what budget we 34 have to work with, to force their hand. Mr. Ridgely Ms. Andrews 35 stated a motion to address ag PUD’s first. Seconded by the 11-1 Dr. Olson 36 motion carried with dissenting. 37 OTHER BUSINESS 38 39 Mr. Corrick 40 invited comment from those in attendance not in the committee to speak. 41 Mr. Ferguson 42 said he was going to encourage the committee to focus on the ag PUD’s 43 since it is the most pressing and the easiest to deal with. He told Mr. Corrick that he 44 thinks there is a legal mechanism in place now to do the simplified TDR he mentioned 45 earlier. He stated in the last few years he’s not aware of the county giving away density, 46 so he thinks it would be easy to ask the commission not to give away density and easy for Page 9 of 10 1 them to agree. He said in his experience, a successful TDR program in the country there 2 does not exist that could be slapped on St. Lucie County and work. He said it would be 3 creating something that has never been tried before in the country that may or may not 4 work. 5 Mr. Linton 6 said part of the discussion of transferring density from the western lands to 7 the urban area is that all the land in the urban area already has underlying land use 8 entitlement, so there will not be a big market, so for the most part, the density will be 9 moving around the western lands. He said DCA is looking at revisiting the rural lands to 10 possibly create villages or suburban development, which could be a more fruitful 11 receiving area. 12 Mr. RidgelyMr. Johnson 13 said he will talk to Growth Management about the EAR. 14 motioned that Mr. Ridgely meet with Growth Management on behalf of the committee. Mr. Miller 15 seconded, and the motion passed unanimously. 16 Mr. Spyke 17 mentioned he attended the agritourism conference in Gainesville, for 18 information on making ag profitable. He said he asked LeeAnn Adams to come to one of 19 our meetings to give the committee a synopsis of the conference. 20 21 The committee confirmed the location of the next meeting in Conference Room 3 on 22 April 25, 2008. 23 The meeting was adjourned around 12:00 PM 24 Page 10 of 10