HomeMy WebLinkAboutCourt Rptr. Minutes 04-23-2008
ST. LUCIE COUNTY BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT
RE: Citrus Lakes Estates APP-120081394
WEDNESDAY - APRIL 23, 2008
9:30 A.M.
St. Lucie County Administration Bui Iding
Commission Chambers
2300 Virginia Avenue
Fort Pierce, Florida
MEMBERS PRESENT:
CHAIRPERSON RON HARRIS
ROBERT BANGERT
BUDDY EMERSON
DIANE ANDREWS
BOARD ATTORNEY:
KATHERINE MACKENZIE-SMtTH, ESq,
FOR CITRUS LAKES:
JOHNATHAN A. FERGUSON, ESQ,
RUDEN, McCLOSKY, SMITH,
SCHUSTER & RUSSELL, P.A.
145 N.W. Central Park Plaza.
Suite 200
Port St. Lucie. Florida 34986
STAFF:
Robin Meyer
Mark Satterlee
Lawrence Szynkowski
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MR. HARRIS: AI I right. That brings us to
3 Agenda Item NO.3. Before I ask Staff to start,
4 see that we have a number of people that have
5 signed in that wish to speak on this matter. Most
6 of you probably know that the Appl icant has
7 requested a continuance unti I next month,
8 However, you Wi 1 I get the opportunity to speak.
9 would ask that you I imit your speaking to
10 five minutes since there is a number of you, With
11 that, Citrus Lakes Estates, Appeal 120081394.
12 Mr, Szynkowsk i. you are up.
13
MR, SZYNKOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Mr. Chairman and members of the Board of
15 Adj ustment, the pet i t i on before you I s from
16 St. Luc ie Citrus Consu I t i ng, LLC, appea ling the
17 decision of the St. Lucie County Growth Management
18 director who requ i red the App I i cant to app I y for,
19 and receive approval of, a separate conditional
20 use and mining permit for the proposed extraction
21 and removal of material to create a 32-acre lake,
22 located in the AG-5, agricultural 5, bui Iding
23 units -- pardon me -- five acres per one dwel ling
24 unit zoning district.
25 And that would be done prior to the site plan
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1 approval for Citrus Lakes Estates, minor site
2 plan. Such appeal is authorized under Sections
3 12.04.01 and 11.01 .B.3 of the St. Lucie County
4 Land Development Code.
5 If you wish to proceed or would you like
6 to
7
MR. HARRIS: No. Thank you, sir.
8 I wi I I ask the Board members, do you have any
9 questions of Staff, Mr. SzynkowSki?
10 Ms. Andrews?
11
MS. ANDREWS: Perhaps later,
want to ask
12 something about the DRC report that is mentioned.
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MR. HARR IS: I f we get to it.
Chief Emerson, do you have anything?
MR. EMERSON: Not right now.
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Bangert?
MR. BANGERT; Not at this time.
MR. HARRIS: AI I right. Now I wi I I open this
19 item to the publ ic.
20 Is the Appl ¡cant's representative here who
21 wishes to approach the Board and make his request
22 for the continuance?
23
MR. FERGUSON: Good morning, Mr, Chair,
24 members of the Board. My name is Johnathan
25 Ferguson. 1'm an attorney with the law firm,
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1 Ruden McClosky. I am here on behalf of the
2 App I i cant, And, yes, we have requested a
3 continuance to your May meeting. We received the
4 Staff report. as I noted in the request, the
5 complete Staff report Friday morning, There are
6 some issues in the Staff report that we think we
7 need to address, We did not feel that we could
8 get those addressed timely and give the Board of
9 Adjustment an opportunity to review our responses
10 to the Staff report with enough time to digest
11 them prior to this meeting.
12 My understanding is that Staff does not
13 oppose the request for a continuance. I also
14 understand the inconvenience to the publ ic that
15 has come out to speak out on th i smatter. So to
16 the extent it matters, I apologize to them for
17 that. However, there is not any prej ud i ce to the
18 County. There is certainly not any prejudice to
19 the Appl icant, And the publ ic wi II have either
20 this morning, or they can come back at the May
21 meeting, and they wi I I have a ful I opportunity to
22 comment on the appeal. So unless you have any
23 quest ions, the reasons for our request were stated
24 in the written request that we submitted Monday
25 morning to Staff. I 8m avai lable for questions.
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MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.
Ms. Andrews, do you have questions?
MS, ANDREWS: Not at this time.
MR. .HARRIS: Chief Emerson?
MR. EMERSON: Not right now.
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Bangert?
MR, BANGERT: No,
MR. HARRIS: AI I right, sir.
Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.
AI I right. Ladies and gentlemen, those that
11 wish to speak, either for or against this matter,
12 you are welcome to come to the podium and state
13 your name and address,
14
MR. BANGERT: They wi I I be here at the May
1 5 meet Î ng .
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MR. HARRIS: Let them speak
MR, SHIREY: My name is Joe Shirey. I live
18 at 17575 Hammock Lane, Hidden Acres, in Port St.
19 Lucie. I received some communications regarding
20 this in some things. And one of the letters that
21 I read was to the Board of Adj ustment by Mr. and
22 Mrs. Powers. And ¡nth i s they refer to
23 landowners' dreams of having a home site and
24
developing their land accordingly.
came in this
25 morning and, having reviewed the site plan, and
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1 hav i ng done site plans with construct i on jobs i n
2 the past myself, it is always included where the
3 homes are going to be and how things are going to
4 be I aid out. None of that is ava i I ab I e here, A I I
5 this is, is showing a site plan for a development,
6 that something mayor may not happen in the
7 future, and talking about excavating sand to dig a
8 32-acre lake, And from communicating with people
9 and talking about it, we are looking at possibly
10 in the neighborhood of a mi I I ion yards of sand.
11 Now they're talking about it in their letter about
12 spread i ng the I and out over the i r property wh i ch
13 is existing cattle, pasture and citrus grove,
14 You' I-e not go i ng to spread 5 foot of sand
15 over ö cow pasture and sti I I have an existing
16 pasture; you just ruined the pasture. You are riot
17 spreading 5 foot of sand out around your ocean
18 or around your orange groves and have them be a
19 viable grove, Where is this sand going to go?
2Q
As of yesterday, I could have retai led this
21 sand for $3.25 a yard. And at a mi I I ion yards,
22 that is over $3 mi I I ion, So this is a commercial
23 mining operation. Or, is this, in fact, a
24 homeowner trying to develop something for himself?
25 It sounds to me I ike it's a commercial operation.
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1 .., don't want a commerc i a f operat i on in my
2 neighborhood. That was 80,OQO trucks. How many
3 years is that going to take to do it? That's my
4 point. Thank you.
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MR. HARRIS: Thank you, sir. Thank you very
6 much.
7 Anyone else? Yes, ma'am -- or yes, sir,
8
9
MR, BERRY: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Board
members. My name is Randy Berry,
live at 18502
10 Tranqu ¡Ii ty Base Lane in Aero Acres, a I so
11 happen to be the standing president of the
12 Treasure Coast Bu i I ders Assoc i at i on. And just for
13 basic knowledge of what the situation is with this
14 th i ng, I strong I y support a person's right to
15 develop their property; no problem with that
16 whatsoever. And I know that there is a shortage
17 of aggregate in Florida right now.
18 To give you a I ittle insight of what this
19 proj ect was, when th i s was or i g i na I I Y bought by
20 Ideal Holding Company, who I actually worked for
21 one of the gentlemen, Chuck Stone, this was
22 originally going to be a waterski community and it
23 was addressed as a PUD for, I think it was,
24 60 un i ts or someth i ng like that. That was den i ed
25 as a PUD, The main reason it was denied, bel ieve
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1 it or not, was in his appl ication, Mr, Powers
2 stated that he wanted to have a truck scale.
3 First off, we know that truck scales are not
4 used for sand or fiJ I. They are used for rock,
5 And doing his due di I ¡gence, initially before
6 purchasing from Ideal Holding Road, he real ized,
7 in discovery, that there was aggregate. There is
8 a I ine of aggregate that goes from up on
9 up -- from the north mines up on Indrio Road, al I
10 the way down Carlton Road and whateVer. There is
11 a bank of coquina rock there. And aggregate is a
12 very strong commodity.
13 This is not for the purpose of bui Iding a
14 pond or a lake. This is a purpose of excavating
15 coquina rock for aggregate to make money in a
16 commercial operation. And then when it is done,
17 he may turn it Into some kind of a community.
18 That's the purpose. This is a wolf in sheep's
19 clothing and he is not a good neighbor. Thank
20 you.
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MR, HARRIS: Thank you, sir.
Yes, ma'am.
MS. CLOSE: Good morning. My name is
24 Patricia Close and I live in the community of Aero
25 Acres. We have been to these meetings before,
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1 And I wi I I keep this real short. We don't trust
2 Mr, Powers. It's nice that he has a dream.
3 Everybody is entitled to have their dreams, We
4 just think he has got to take his dreams somewhere
5 else. Our dreams were here first. have been
6 I i v i ng in the commun i ty for 1 Q years. Peop Ie
7 worked hard to get what they have, It's clean.
Bit's quiet. We can run up and down Ideal Holding
9 Road, run our dogs. We are not going to be able
10 to do that with th i s proj ect . He says he has
11 changed his plans from X-amount of houses to this
12 amount of houses, but the size of the lake has
13 never changed. That shows us that he just wants
14 the money. He wants his dream to happen
15 regardless of the surrounding communities, who
16 have been there for ages.
17 There is going to be a road war with trucks
18 going up and down Ideal Holding Road. The road is
19 going to get tore up. There is going to be mental
20 attitudes in the communities that are changed,
21 trying to get up and down Ideal Holding Road. not
22 to mention the physical aspects that can change
23 our health.
24 And I'm just wonder ì ng how many times we have
25 to come to these meet i ngs to say no. "No" meant
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1 "no" before. "No" sti II means "no" now. And
2 regardless of how many times he appeals this, we
3 are sti I going to say "no." So we think he can
4 have his dream. he has just got to take it
5 somewhere else. Thank you.
6
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MR. HARRIS: Thank you, ma'am.
MR. STORMS: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and
8 Comm i ss i oners. My name' is Larry Storms. My
9 address is 3150 North A1A, Fort Pierce, 34949,
1Q Fort Pierce. I'm not here today -- Fi rst, I wi II
11 say I think I resigned from your Board at the
12 right time in January, and wish you well with
13 this particular decision. do not envy it and
14 certainly understand the situation that you're in
15
relative to interpretation.
disclosed first, as
16 I am one to do, that I have no contractual, nor
17 have J ever, relationship with whoever Mr. Powers
18 is, with Johnathan Ferguson or anyone else we
1 9 might ta' k about. I wi I I a I so say I am not here
2Q to support or recommend denial of this, when this
21 decision is ultimately made.
22 What the decision today or, I guess, now May,
23 is really about, for me is the integrity of the
24 Land Development Code. I also have a I ittle issue
25 with the process of around 15 months of -- having
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1 read yesterday some of the information related to
2 th i s proj ect, th is process - - th i s proJ ect has
3 gone through. But to the specifics, the matter at
4 hand really, again, is a question -- whether or
5 not the Land Development Code -- and the cited
6 section is 11.05.11 ,A.2. That's what you're
7 trying to do· to determine that, is whether or not,
8 through a site plan process, is there, in fact, an
9 exemption that a mining permit is not required?
1Q As you might guess, my opinion is that it is
11 exempt. I find nothing in the Land Development
12 Code to suggest that it's subj ect to further
13 review or discretion of anyone, including the
14 Growth Management director to decide he wants to
15 tack something else on, I ike a mining permit to a
16 site plan,
17 I would add that, again, not advocating
18 approval 'or denial, that there are provisions, and
19 that relates to Section 11.Q2.07, by which the
2Q site plan wi I I be reviewed. And, again, that has
21 various things, including neighborhood
22 compat i b i I i ty, that cou I d u I t i mate I y resu I tin the
23 Growth Management director recommending or denying
24 th i s app I i cat I on .
25 Again, the charge here is frankly, does that
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1 exemption under the mining aspect of this exist or
2 not? I would quickly go to having looked quickly
3 at some of the correspondence to .back in
4 September 12th when Charlene Burgess, the
5 executive aide to Commissioner Coward, asked the
6 question, "Is there any loophole" -- and I don't
7 see it as a loophole. I wi II editorial ize -- "in
8 the Land Development Code that al lows a property
9 owner to excavate a lake and avoid securing a
10 mining permit?" And Lawrence -- and I apologize
11 in advance. always butcher his name,
12 "Szynkowsk i . "
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MR. HARRIS: That would be "Szynkowski."
MR, STORMS: "Szynkowsk i . " I a I ways want to
15 put the "S" there, probab I y because I have an "S."
16 What Growth Management said in -- The
17 appl ication of minor site plan has been submitted
18 on 1/3/07 and oetermined complete on 6/26/07.
19 Again, that is a Minor Site Plan Appl ication. He
20 went on, in fact, to cite that exemption provision
21 from the mining permit,
22 So I wi I I leave the discussion to others.
23 Mark Satter lee, in fact, sa i d on Qctober 19th in
24 an -- either an e-mail or a letter to the
25 App I j cant, "What you're propos i ng probab I y does
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1 not constitute mining for the Land Development
2 Code and can be considered excavation associated
3 wi th the site p I an"; that was back in October.
4
So I think it's rather interesting. Again,
5 back to my issue with the process of 15 months
6 later; we are now having to bring up the issue of
7 a mining permit. Thank you.
8 MR. HARRIS: Thank you, sir.
9 Yes. sir. Please step forward,
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MR. LECATES: Good morning. My name is David
11 Lecates and II i ve at Aero Acres, 18601 Kitty Hawk
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Court.
have I ived there since '95, bought the
lot there in '93. And in '94 --
am sorry -- in
14 '96, January 2nd of '96, I started the process of
15 creating an MSBU to have Ideal Holding Road paved.
16 Up until that point it was a sand/dirt road
17 leading into our community. The people who lived
18 in Aero Acres and along Ideal Holding Road shared
19 in the expense of that as wel I as did the County,
20 understand at that time -- understood at
21 that time that it was the largest MSBU ever done
22 by the County, We worked very we I I with
23 Becky -- forget her last name -- from the MSBU
24 department. She pul led everything together, and
25 within about a year. a-year-and-a-half a road was
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1 paved, We shared in our part of the expenses of
2 that; we, the people of Aero Acres and residents
3 boarding on Ideal Holding Road. So we also feel
4 as if we have some ownership in that road.
5 Paving the road has increased the value of
6 each one of our properties by a tremendous amount,
7 Because coming into a 1 ,8-mi Ie road, being Ideal
8 Holding Road, the road -- only road entering Aero
9 Acres, as a dirt road, it was very hard to sell
10 propert i es up unt i I that po i nt . With i n a yea r
11 after that po i nt there were no propert i es for sa I e
12 in our community because of this greatly improved
13 paved road and the removal of invasive trees and
14 bushes along the side of Ideal Holding Road. So
15
our ownership is very
is something that we're
16 a I I very proud of and very concerned with.
17 What we're mostly concerned with is the
18 amount of trucks that wi I I be go i ng down I dea I
19 Holding Road, a road that was never designed for a
20 lot of heavy truck traffic. It doesn't have the
21 same type of a base or covering on it that, say,
22 Route 70, that is being redone in that area, would
23 have. But it does fine for a sma I I road leading
24 to a smal I community such as ours.
25
I understand that they wanted
want
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1 Mr. Powers to put up a bond of a mi I I ion dollars.
2 But with the rising costs of crude oi I, I'm not
3 sure that ami II i on do II ars is anywhere near
4 sufficient at this point because of the amount of
5 trucks entering and leaving that faci I íty, that
6 lot, for the amount of years that this wi I I take,
7 wi 'I just tear that road up tremendous I y. One of
8 our ma i n concerns ¡sturn i ng that back into a dirt
9 road. Because trucks I eav i ng that fac i I j ty, after
10 it being loaded with a large excavator that would
11 drop sànd into the truck from the top, some of the
12 sand and dust and si' ica -- bad for breathing,
13 people with breathing ai fments -- it would be
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blowing from off of the excavator into the
into
15 our community. Because in this section of
16 Florida, our prevail ing winds are from the east to
17 the west. Our fac ¡Ii ty - - our property is west of
18 his fac i I i ty, and we wou I d be gett i ng a I I of that
19 dust.
20 There is a -- in the paperwork for this,
21 there is a barrier that they have driven -- put a
22 I ine around it, of homes that would be most
23 affected by that. And on I y it looks like, two of
24 the homes except - - i n ou r commun i ty wi I I be
25 affected by that; the one closest to it, which is
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1 a very nice home owned by Ken Mascara, and then
2 the next home by that is by another fam i I y, La rry
3 and Diane Stewart. But in a high-wind situation,
4 I ike we have in the spring, the dust wi I blow
5 completely into our faci I ity, into our community.
6 And it would also go onto the road because the
7 road is west of this community.
8
We're tired of a dirt road. We were tired of
9 it enough to enter into an agreement with the
10 County to have it paved and pay our portion of it.
11 . And we don't want it to turn back into a dirt
12 road. In these times where it is hard to sell
13 homes in this county because of the deprived
14 market, we in Aero Acres, as in Carlton Estates,
15 there are some lots and properties with homes on
16 them for sale, as there are in al I communities at
17
this point,
couldn't imagine trying to sel I my
18 home when the entrance to our commun i ty was a dirt
19 road again, I ike it was prior to the road being
20 paved. Peop I e won I t want to come down a 1. 8-m ¡Ie
21 road that is ful I of dirt and dust and potholes to
22 look at a house.
23
Today we have a beautiful entrance. What
24 th i s will cause is an awfu I eyesore to our I oca
25 communities. Other communities want to be -- wi I I
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1 possibly be developed I ike this around the Ideal
2 Holding Road entrance in the future.
3 We are not adverse to a waterski park.
4 Another motor sport-type, park-type community
5 along Ideal Holding Road is something that we
6 re I ish. It's not the dest i nat i on, . it's the
7 journey to get there, through a II of the sand and
B dust and dirt excavation. He has
9 app lied - - Mr. Powers has app lied for ami n i ng
10 permit for 25 feet deep, yet he claims he is only
11 go i ng to put in ponds 8 feet deep. I n a prev i ous
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meeting he told me
he answered my question as
13 to why it needs to be 25 feet deep, which was his
14 intention then, and I believe is his intention now
15 because of the amount of rock that he can take out
16 of there. He needed to make it 25 feet deep for
17 weed control. That didn't make much sense,
18 So in trying to learn more about his end of
19 the proj ect, I contacted the Un i ted States
20 Waterski Foundation, which is over in the Tampa
21 area. There are about eight waterski parks in the
22 state already. Most are not sold out, by the way.
23 And they said that, well, if they are bui Iding a
24 waterski park, what they wi I I do is never make
25 their lakes more than 8 feet, That's the deepest
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1 they would make the lake. There is controversy as
2 to how deep he is going to make the lake and how
3 much he is going to take out, We think that if it
4 looks I ike a duck, walks I ike a duck, quacks like
5 a duck, more than I ikely it is a duck, and he is
6 . in the mining business,
7 One of the things that I learned rrom the
8 U.S. Waterski Foundation was that most waterski
9 parks work just the oppos i te way. The owners wi I I
10 buy their -- the developer wi I I buy an old mine
11 and turn it into a watersk i park, and just the
12 opposite of what he is interested in doing. There
13 are plenty of old mines for sale in the State of
14 Florida, that nobody wants a big lake I ike that,
15 That'would be a more appropriate opportunity for
16 that gentleman. We do understand he is entitled
17 to do something with his property, and we don't
18 have a problem with that, but what we have a
19 problem with is the amount of dirt that wi I I be
2Q removed,
21 He claims in letters he has written that it's
22 impossible to calculate the amount of dirt or fi I I
23 that wi I I come out of there. We I I, we a'l know
24 that that is not impossible. It's a simple
25 mathematical equation; and I can do it, most of
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1 you folks can do it, And what we would recommend
2 is to have somebody who is an expert in that do
3 that math and come up with a total amount of yards
4 that wi I I be removed so that we a II have a better
5 understanding when we do the math. We are looking
6 at about 3Q trucks a day, 6 days a week, for
7 7 years. th i nk that was the math that we came
8 up with. Could you imagine having that many large
9 dump trucks going down your street? don't think
1Q you would appreciate that either. And that is our
11 onl y concern, is dust and dirt that wi I I b low into
12 our commun i ty, and the dust and dirt that wi I I.
13 eventua I I Y make I dea I Ho i ding Road a dirt road
14 again on top of the nicely paved road that the
15 County entered in with us. Thank you for
16 listening.
17
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MR. HARRIS: Thank you, sir,
Is there anyone else? Yes, sir, Please step
19 forward.
20
MR, HUDSON: Good morning. My name is Mike
21 Hudson. I 8m with Carlton Country Estates which
22 is one of the closest communities -- I am sorry --
23 my address is 18203 Bridle Way, PSL, Florida.
24 am not only speaking on behalf of myself as a
25 res i dent of Car I ton Country Estates, but a I so as a
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1 member of the board or the POA for Carlton Country
2 Estates which is, as you can see by the Aero view,
3 is one of the most impacted communities. As you
4 heard from the folks at Aero Acres, they have
5 about two lots in that impacted area and we have
6 six across the bottom, and mine happens to be the
7 one on the far west end of that lot, No, 24.
8 We have, of course, as a community been
9 looking at this issue for some time. We have
10 addressed severa I issues, due to impact on the
11 road and the amount of trucks in the area, My
12 biggest concern has to do the health and welfare
13 of our drinking water. As you know, with these
14 proposed numbers at 25 feet, Florida has a very
15 de I i cate water tab Ie, and that wi' ¡ impact· our
16 wel Is out there because we have no services from
17 the county for water, for drinking water in that
18 area. And without any hydrology studies done,
19 that depth wou I d mean that our qua I i ty of dr ink i ng
20 water -- I think this is something we wi I I have to
21 ask as a community to deny or at least require the
22 mining permit to be drawn so that these studies
23 can be done.
24 You know, my fami Iy is at risk with this, as
25 we I ¡ as our commun i ty members. I th i nk that needs
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1 to be looked at first and foremost. Second of
2 al I, I concur with some of my neighbors that when
3 you look at this site -- it's kind of interesting
4 for those of you who don't know -- but that has
5 been separated out into four different lots now.
6 is my understanding. And if you look at those
7 closely, the way they're entered from, off of
8 Ideal Holding Road, which my understanding, and
9 according to this layout. is the only access to
10 those four. Particularly, the lots in the middle,
11 lot 2 and 3. would require two sorts of bridges to
12 access these properties over these lakes that are
13 bui It, simply for maintenance purposes, if nothing
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else.
don't know how they would access their
15' property for simple mowing and maintenance and lot
16 cleanup. Or the way these lakes are cut on those
17 four lots; as you can see, lot 2 and 3 are highly
18 susceptible to that and would certainly be, I
19 think, a deterrent in a resale situation. Which
20 leads me to bel ¡eve, of course, that it would be a
21 value issue on those particular lots anyway, which
22 may affect ours.
23 You know, I think none of us here today are
24 opposed to residential development out in our
25 community, We I ive there and we I ike that area.
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1 I just th i nk there is some po i nts that have not
2 been looked at to approve this particular request.
3 I did look up a couple of things, Earl ier,
4 someth i ng just as simp I e as what the def i nit i on i n
5 the dictionary of mine -- or "mining" is; and it
6 is to excavate the earth or excavation of the
7 earth. And I think that's what we're looking at
8 out there.
9 The other thing that is kind of interesting
10 to me personally is that they are asking for some
11 fairly significant depth in these lakes, Yet,
12 however, when you look at the draft of a common
13 ski boat, it is 4 to 8 feet max, depending on the
14 size of the lake and horsepower of the engines
15 that drive it.
16 Based on just the comments you have heard
17 today and the few comments by me, and I think a
18 ground swel I from the local community out there,
19 respectfully ask that the Board denies this
2Q request. Thank you,
21
MR, HARRIS; Thank you, Mr. Hudson. Is there
22 anyone else?
23 Yes, Mr. Mil I er .
24
MR, MILLER: Good morning, For the record,
25 my name is Joseph Mi r ler. I live at 5404 Ideal
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1. Holding Road, I would I ike to read a prepared
2 statement that my wife prepared. We are
3 addressing the minor site plan submitted for
4 Citrus Lake Estates which is in the Planning
5 Department for review. This letter serves to
6 express our opposition to the proposed site plan.
7 It is our pos it i on that the proposed site p I an
8 should not be approved for the fol lowing reasons:
9 The mining operation wi I' drastically affect
10 the water table which could have a negative impact
11 on the qual ity of our drinking water and also our
12 pasture land and my neighbor's pasture land, which
13 is used for cattle grazing,
14 No.2, the increased traffic, which wi I I
15 occur from heavy dump trucks wi I I potent i a I I Y
16 damage Ideal Holding Road.
17 No, 3, the noise from dump trucks wi I I affect
18 the qua I i ty of our life as we know it and in what
19 we're I i v i ng in, in ani ce qu i et, serene
20 neighborhood.
21 The past behavior of the owner leads us to
22 be I i eve that the rea I intent of th is request for a
23 site p I an adj ustment is for a true m i n i ng
24 operation and not to modify the landscape to al low
25 for a housing development.
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1 We would appreciate your assistance in this
2 matter to vote no for this mining permit for
3 Citrus Lakes Estates.
4 wou I d I í ke to make one sma I I comment.
5 would I ike everybody here opposing this to stand
6 up so the Board can get a real view of our
7 position.
8
And our position wi I I stand, I appreciate
9 your time. Thank you very much.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Mi I ler.
Yes, ma'am. Would you I ike to speak?
MS. NORVELL: Good morning, My name is Ann
Norvell. I I ive at 5528 Ideal Holding Road, Fort
Pierce. I was born and raised in St, Lucie
County, Mary Carlton, my partner, who passed away
Ju I y of '07 was born and raised in St. Lucie
County, We bought this land in 1943. We had
18 tried to stay in the cattle business aJ I these
19 years. We own the property, one ha j f ami e
20 frontage of this property. Two hundred feet is
21 the boundary between our property and his
22 property, The question that I have is -- The
23 I akes that he wants to dig, it wou I d jerk the
24 water table out from under my cattle operation,
25 and I wou I d have to se I I the property. But
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why -- how could I sel the property with a mining
permit that he wants on his property? Nobody
wants -- wi I want to buy my property if I ever
sel I it with a mining operation right across the
road.
But, as you folks know how serious the water
situation is in St. Lucie County, and if he digs
these wef Is this deep, it's going to affect Aero
Acres, it's going to affect my property, it's
going to affect Joey Mi I ler's property and Hidden
Acres. So I think the Board ought to take this
into consideration. Thank you.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Ms. Norvel I.
Yes, ma'am, front row,
MS. SINBINE: 1'm Barbara Cleveland Sinbine.
I ive at 17275 Hammock Lane in Hidden Acres.
had really not had an intention to get up and talk
today, I, too, am a native of Fort Pierce. Both
of my parents were born here in Fort Pierce.
moved to Hidden Acres because everything around me
was zoned agricultural. r had no intention of
I iving next to a sand mine. We al I have
respiratory problems. There is no way that there
wi I I not be dust, I do have a wel I, Just like
everyone else out here. r would ike to have
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1 water that was safe to drink coming out of that
2 wel I, I truly bel íeve that the entire operation
3 is set up just to make money for - - I mean, that
4 is my opinion -- money for this gentleman,
5 think he has no intention of setting up home sites
6 at that address. Who would want to I ive on the
7 home sites the way that he has even got it set up?
8 The lakes are too deep. It's too much for this
9 area. This is not why we moved out there. Thank
10 you.
11
12
13
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Ms. Sinbine,
Yes, ma'am.
MS, BEERS: Good morning,
am June Beers.
14 I ive at 18704 Kitty Hawk Court, Port St. Lucie.
15 We al I have personal reasons for why we came to
16 th i s beaut i fu I a rea. And we a I I did ¡tat
17 different times and we a I I have some very
18 substantial investments in our property, no matter
19 how large or how smal I. whether we are a cattle
20 rancher, a resident retired,
21 worked for 45 years at General Dynamics in
22 Sterl ing Heights, Michigan, and retired in July.
23 We purchased our home 10 years ago, bui It it, and
24 came back and forth, And we selected the air park
25 there because it was just one of the most
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1 beautiful in Florida. And we have loved it there,
2 It is qu i et. It is serene, It is beaut i fu I. The
3 catt Ie, everyth i ng is Just fabu I ous . So I'm
4 com i ng back and forth to F I or i da for 10 years
5 say i ng, Man, it's go i ng to be rea I I Y nice when
6 retire. And then I began fol lowing this proposal
7 that started several years ago and coming to the
8 meetings. and reading and I istening. And I don't
9 think there are any really good conclusions as to
10 exactly what is going to come out of that property
11 and so forth. But suffice it to say. that the
12 main concerns that we have, at least that I have
13 for sure, and that it rea II y bothers me, is
14 safety. The second concern is qua I i ty of life.
15 and the third is pr~perty values.
16 And I do hope that you wi II th i nk persona 11 y
17 about us and come to a good conclusion in this.
18 Thank you for the opportunity.
19
20
MR, HARRIS: Thank you, Ms. Beers,
Sir, did you want to speak? Please come to
21 the microphone, State your name and address.
22
MR. DIXON: My name is Rick Dixon, I I ive at
23 6421 South Header Cana I Road. And I rea Ily had
24 questions more than comments. It sounds I ike the
25 comments, a lot of which we share, have been made.
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1 I have a question regarding the continuance and
2 the actual proceedings. Are what is being
3 presented to you now having to do with the
4 continuance or voting at a future time regarding
5 approval of the mining operation?
6
MR. HARRIS: Sir, the appl ¡cation has been
7 presented to appea I, but the App I i cant has come up
8 and requested a continuance, which the Board wi I I
9 discuss after everyone has their say.
10 They took the time to come out, just like you
11 did,
12
MR, DIXON: Okay. AI I right. And, you know,
13 received notification from the County Commission
14 regarding the meeting, because of being a property
15 owner within a certain distance, and that was
16 good, But are the requirements regarding the
17 extension of time -- In other words, do -- would
18 also have received notification of the
19 continuance?
20
MR, HARRIS: I wi I I look to Staff to answer
21 that question,
22 Mr. Szynkowsk i .
23
MR. SZYNKQWSKI: Technically, on a
24 continuance, I don't bel ieve the publ ic notice is
25 required. It -- of course, the Growth Management
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1 Department could also go beyond that and notify
2 property owners.
3
MR. HARRIS: Ms, Smith, do you have anything
4 to add?
5
MS, MACKENZIE-SMITH: If you continue it to a
6 date certa in, I be I i eve, Mr. Szynkowsk ¡is
7 correct. If you had continued it to an open date,
8 then it would be required.
9
10
MR. HARRIS: Thank you,
MR, DIXON: Okay. I twas just a concern on
11 my part that, you know, is it possible then for
12 him to ask for a continuance for the property
13 owners not to be notified, and can it be done for
14 any number of times? Is there a I imit on the
15 number of times that a continuance would be
16 granted, if it indeed is granted?
17
18
MR. HARRIS: Ms. Smith?
MS. MACKENZIE-SMITH: Yes, sir, There is no
19 number in the book, It would be up to the Board;
20 and the reasons for the continuance and the
21 va lid i ty of them.
22
23
MR. DIXON: Okay. My concern
coaching background, The strategy
I have a
and the
24 strategy, in my opinion, with al I due respect to
25 counse I, wou I d be that - - you know, I'm sure
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1 Mr. Powers is awar~ that there is pretty
2 overwhelming dissent as far as, you know, getting
3 approva I. And be j ng ab I e to separate the body of
4 people that disagree with the approval of this --
5 to be able to separate that from when he is going
6 to come in and present his case, and postpone
7 it -- Now. didn't have a calendar in front of
8 me, but if were the coach, coach i ng him, I wou I d
9 say, Why don't you move it back to a time when
10 maybe the people that are dissenting wi I I be out
11 of town, or, you know, at a future time? Just a
12 matter of attrition -- and if he can bring
13 continuance after continuance after continuance,
14 you know, through attrition maybe he wi I I get rid
15 of his opposition.
16 So my request to the Board is to take that
17 into consideration. And unless it is an
18 automatic, unless his request for a continuance is
19 automatic. I would ask for you to deny it, if
20 that's possible.
21 And I' m not - - you know, I' m not p r i vy to a I I
22 of the rules, but -- and you al I, you know, see
23 his reasons for a continuance, but I'm proposing
24 to you, Just based on, you know, a bas i c know I edge
25 of strategy, is that rather than, you know, due
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1 d i I i gence, that he I s just hop i ng to wea r the
2
group down.
mean, that's my opinion about what
3 is happening.
4 So I would ask the Board to deny the
5 continuance. Is that a posslbi I ity? I mean,
6 could you vote to deny it?
7
MR, HARRIS: Sir, we wi I discuss that at a
8 later time,
9
MR. DIXON: Okay,
MR. HARRIS: No one is ready to commit.
10
11 Everybody has a right, and you are exercising
12 yours right now. And we thank you for your
13 comments.
14
15
MR. DIXON: Okay. Thank you.
MR, HARRIS: Yes, Thank you,
16 Does anyone else out there wish to speak for
17 or against this and add anything new to the
18 discussíon? We've heard a lot of items regarding
19 water issues, traffic issues. We understand all
20 of those things,
21 Seeing no one else, al I right, 1'm going to
22 return back to the Board then.
23 Board members, the Appl icant has requested an
24 extension, due to the lack of time to reviewal I
25 of the i nformat i on í n the package. Persona I I Y
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1 speaking, Staff supports the extension; I don't
2 see a prob I 8m with it. We've hea rd a I I of th i s
3 test i mony . It's a matter of record. We're not
4 going to forget it, folks. And you are welcome to
5 come back. And I would I ike to be sure that we
6 send out notification. I don't want these people
7 left in the dark. You know, they took the time to
8 come today. They may want to take the time to
9 come back next month. And we want to make it for
10 a date certain in May.
11 Do the Board members wish to discuss the
1 2 item?
13
MS. ANDREWS: I'm not in favor of the
14 continuance.
15
16
MR. HARRIS: AI I right.
MR. EMERSON: Mr. Chairman, before we decide
17 whether a continuance is warranted or not, there
18 is some questions I need to have Staff answer,
19 just for my own clarification,
20
21
MR, HARRIS: AI I right.
MR, EMERSON: Is there or was there a
22 recommendation by the Development Review Committee
23 relative to this minor site plan?
24
MR, SZYNKOWSKI: There was no final
25 recommendation by the Development Review
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1 Committee.
2
MR. EMERSON: Was there a final determination
3 by you relative to the status of this Minor Site
4 Plan AppJ ication?
5
6
MR. SZYNKQWSKI: No, I did not prepare one,
MR. EMERSON: I'm going to state something
7 here so that the audience is aware of my
8 particular opinions relative to any development
9 that occurs in the rural areas of St. Lucie County
10 because I, like they, live in a rura I area of St.
11 Lucie County, but my zoning is AG 2.5. I have
12 groves to the west of me, groves to the east of
13 me, and would very much oppose anything that
14 doesn't look I ike where I I ive coming next to me.
15 But that being said -- Oh, and I have fought
16 other proj ects that intended to change the
17 character of what I felt was appropriate for the
18 rural environment,
19 But that being said, there is a procedural
2Q question here that Mr, Storms has raised that I
21 think is pertinent before you decide whether -- we
22 decide whether a continuance is warranted, And
23 that is, should this even be here?
24 Because there was no recommendation by DRC,
25 there was no final decision made by the Growth
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1 Management director, and that clearly is cal led
2 out for in our code, is it not? And I wi II ask
3 the attorney here: Doesn't it say, even before
4 there ¡san appea I. there has to be a
5 determination?
6
MS. MACKENZIE-SMITH: There has to be a
7 determination. but the determination that is being
8 appealed today is Mr. Satterlee's determination.
9
MR. EMERSON: Can you put on the board the
1Q section. that deals with appeals.
11 Actually, it's 11.02.Q3, No.5-A,
12
MR, MEYER: For the record, Robin Meyer,
13 assistant director of Growth Management. When
14 Larry said he didn't make a determination, he did
15 not. However, Mark Satterlee did make a
16 determination that this appl ication was incorrect
17 and had to be a mine, And that is what is up for
18 appeal before you today, was that determination by
19 Mark,
20
MR. EMERSQN: I understand that. This is a
21 legal procedural question and I'm asking the
22 attorney. That is why I wanted that section on
23 the board,
24
25
MR. MEYER: I just wanted to c I ar i fy that,
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Meyer,
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35 -
1
MS. MACKENZIE-SMITH: I am sorry. I'm not
2 sure I understand your question.
3
MR. EMERSON: That section of the Code states
4 the approva I procedure for a I I minor site plans.
5 I t says, "The Commun i ty Oeve I opment director
6 shall, within fIve working days following the
7 receipt of a recommendation of the Development
8 Review Committee, issue a decision approving,
9 approving with conditions, or denying the
10 appl ication based upon the requirements of this
11 code, "
12 The section after that, Section B, Appeals,
13 says, "Any fi na I act ion by the Commun i ty
14 Development director in accordance with this
15 section may be appealed to the Board of Adjustment
16 in accordance with the provisions of Section
1 7 11 , 11 . 01 83," any f i na I act i on .
18
And my question is: Has there been any final
19 action relative to this appl ication for site plan?
20
MS. MACKENZIE-SMITH: It's the County's
21 position that Mr, Satterlee's decision has been
22 the final action that is being appealed.
23
MR. EMERSON: And the final determination was
24 ne i ther that the proj ect is approved, not app roved
25 wi th cond i ti ons, nor is it rej ected?
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1
MR. SZYNKQWSKI: The final decision at this
2 point is that the Minor Site Plan Appl ¡cation
3 was -- is inappropriate and it is required to have
4 a conditional use and mining permit applied for
5 and approved, before any minor site plan should be
6 cons i dered i n tota I ,
7
MR. EMERSQN: Okay.
MR, HARRIS: Does that answer your question,
8
9 Chief?
10
11
MR. EMERSON: In a roundabout way.
MR. HARRIS: Okay, That's good.
Any other questions for Staff, Chief Emerson?
MR. EMERSON: Not right now.
MR. HARRIS: Mr, Bangert, do you have
12
13
14
15 questions for Staff?
16
17
MR, BANGERT: Not at this time,
MR. HARRIS: Okay. I wi I I state again the
18 Appl icant has requested a continuance.
19 Ms Andrews, I think I already heard your
20 opinion; you are ready to roll?
21
MS, ANDREWS: (Nods head,)
22
MR. HARRIS: Does anyone wish to make a
23 motion to grant the Appl icant his extension to a
24 date certain in May?
25
MR. BANGERT: I make a motion.
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1
MR, HARRIS: AI I right, We have a motion by
2 Mr. Bangert. Do we have a second?
3
I am looking for a second, AI I right.
am
4 going to pass this down, I am going to second it,
5 Madam secretary, can we have ro II ca II,
6 please.
7
8
9
10
THE CLERK: Mrs. Andrews?
MS, ANDREWS: No, ma'am,
THE CLERK: Chief Emerson.
MR, EMERSQN: No, ma'am.
THE CLERK: Mr. Bangert.
MR. BANGERT: Yes, ma'am,
THE CLERK: Mr. ~arris.
11
12
13
14
15
MR. HARRIS: Yes, ma'am.
AI I right. So we've got a stalemate which
16 brings us to the issue -- Assistant County
17 Attorney, help me out here.
18 Do we hear the case?
19
MS. MACKENZIE-SMITH: You could cal I for
2Q other motions, The motion to continue is denied,
21 If there are no other motions, then, yes, you hear
22 the case.
23
24
MR. HARRIS: AI I right.
Wel I, Mr. Ferguson, it looks I ike we are
25 going to hear your case today. You have heard al I
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1 of the testimony from the appl icants -- I am
2 sorry -- from the interested parties. Would you
3 I ike to get up at this time and present your case?
4
We wi I I open this to the publ ic. Please be
5 advised that we are going to break for lunch at
6 11:30 to al low Staff time to have lunch and for
7 you folks out there.
8 If you would I ike to have a few minutes to
9 collect yourself. Mr. Ferguson, we can --
10
MR, FERGUSQN: No, I am --
MR. HARRIS: recess for about 5 or 1Q and
11
12 al low folks to go to the bathroom and such.
14
MR. FERGUSON: Mr. Chairman.
appreciate -- It may be helpful,
would
13
need to check
15 to see if they have capabi I ity to playa DVD,
16
17
MR. HARRIS: That would be fine.
Folks, we will be in recess 10 minutes. See
18 you back at about 10 to 11 :00, thereabouts.
19 Thank you very much.
2Q (Thereupon, a break was taken.)
21
MR. HARRIS: AI I right. Ladies and
22 gentlemen, we are back in session, Welcome back.
23 Just for the record. I would I ike to throw out
24 that i n my term on the Boa rd of Adj ustment, wh i ch
25 has not been as long as Mr. Bangert's. we have
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1 never den i ed anyone a one-month extens i on. I just
2 want you to know that. So this is the first time
3 that we've ever done that.
4 With that, I wi I I open it back up to
5 Mr. Ferguson.
6
MR, FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr. Chair, members
7 of the Board, Again, my name is Johnathan
8 Ferguson from the law firm of Ruden McClosky on
9 behalf of the Appl ¡cant. I think it's going to
10 be -- it's very important that I reiterate what we
11 are talking about today. And I think it's
12 important for the audience to understand what the
13 purpose of your del i be rat ions are today, And it's
14 easy to get confused. We a I I get a bit confused
.,~'-
1 5 by the process,
16 What is in front of you today is an appeal of
17 a decision made by Mr, Satterlee, the Growth
18 Management director of St. Lucie County. And his
19 decision that we are appeal ing is that this Minor
20 Site Plan Appl ¡cation, before it can undergo any
21 further review and have any kind of determination,
22 the determination that Chief Emerson was pointing
23 out in the Code, before there can be any further
24 Staff review of the Minor Site Plan Appl ¡cation,
25 that this Appl icant needed to submit an
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Stuart & Fort Pierce, Florida
4Q-
1 appl ication for a mining permit. That is the
2 final determination that we are appeal ing.
3 So the sole issue that you have to determine
4 today is whether or not, under the existing Land
5 Development Code, Mr. Satterlee has the authority
6 to request this Appl icant to submit a Mining
7 Permit Appl ication prior to the Growth Management
8 Department having any further consideration of the
9 . Minor Site Plan Appl ication.
10 So what you are not doing today, for the
11 benefit of the audience, is you are not
12 determining whether or not the Minor Site Plan
13 Appl ¡cation is approved or denied. You are not
14 determ i n i ng whether or not a In in i ng perm j tis
15 ~pproved or denied. The sole purpose is whether
16 or not Mr. Satterlee has the authority to request
17 that we submit an appl ication, which, depending on
18 how you rule and what happens, would then go
19 through a review process. The determination as to
20 whether or not to approve the minor site plan is a
21 totally different process and a different forum.
22 So they are not making any final decisions
23 today as to whether or not ami ne wi I I be
24 constructed or go forward one way or another.
25 It's purely a legal argument today whether or not
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1 this Appl icant has to submit a Mining Permit
2 App I i cat i on .
3 That being said, in our opinion, the six-page
4 Staff report never addresses that very narrow
5 I ega I issue. We have bas i ca I I Y four po i nts I
6 would I ike to make and I wi II try not to belabor
7 them. In my opinion this is a relatively
8 straightforward. narrow issue for your
9 consideration, and we can get to it pretty
10 quickly.
11 Our primary argument is that the Land
12 Development Code is crystal clear. It has
13 provisions in Chapter 11, and I know Mr, Harris is
14 probably amazed to hear me say that, since I'm
15 usually up here arguing interpretations and
16 ambiguities. But In this case, the Land
17 Development Code is very clear when it comes to
18 mining permit appl icatlons and when a mining
19 permit is required,
20 For the sake of argument, we wi I I assume that
21 the activity that would occur on this site
22 pursuant to the minor site plan would constitute
23 mining as that term is defined in the Land
24 Development Code. And to paraphrase, mining is
25 the excavation of material on your site and the
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1 removal of more than 100 cubic yards offsite,
2 either by publ ic roads, if you are moving it to a
3 another site or to a site that you don't own,
4
So there is two parts. You have to dig a
5 pond, dig a lake, dig a hole. and you have to haul
6 that material .offsite, more than 100 cubic yards.
7 A dump truck is roughly 17 cubic yards, so you are
8 talking six dump-truck loads; a very smal I
9 threshold. If you trigger both of those
10 thresholds. that is considered mining.
11 Typically, you would then need to apply for a
12 mining permit. However, the Code says very
13 exp lie i t I Y , inSect i on 11. 05 . 11 . A . 2 . b, "No m i n i ng
14 perm i t sha I I be requ i red under thi s sect. i on"
15 this section being the mining perm:t section
16 10 for the fo I I ow i ng act i v i ties, b, i nsta I ling
17 foundations for any bui Iding or other structure or
18 undertaking any development authorized by site
19 plan approval, conditional use permit, planned
20 un it deve I opment approva I or bu i I d í ng perm it. "
21 Bas i ca I I y, if you get one of those other
22 permits, site plan permit, PUD permit, a bui Iding
23 permit, you are exempt from having to get a mining
24 permit. No ifs. ands or buts. No exceptions to
25 the exception. Okay?
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1
Our position is, the Code is clear. We have
2 an app I i cat i on i n for ami nor site p I an . I f that
3 minor site plan is approved, it would al low us to
4 dig the lakes and haul off however much dirt we
5 want to haul off. That is what your code says
6 today. Mr. Satterlee disagrees. And in a
7 somewhat circular argument it is saying, because
B of the I eve I of act i v i ty for your proj ect. and
9 we' I I get to the point as to whether or not it is
10 out of the ord i nary for a proj ect approved by the
11 county in the past, but for the level of activity
12 of your proj ect, we th i nk it tr i ggers ami ne and
13 therefore, needs a mining permit before we can act
14 on the site plan.
15 And I guess in trying to extract what the
16 argument is from the Staff report, we're
17 conditioning without conditioning the minor site
18 plan on a mining permit, and we're not going to
19 act on the minor site plan until you get a mining
20 permit. And so the exemption that says you don't
21 need a mining permit if you get a minor site plan
22 doesn't apply because we're not giving you a minor
23 site plan unti I you get the mining permit.
24 We sort of get caught in this endless loop we
25 can't get out of, other than simply applying for a
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44 ~
1 mining permit.
2 If you look at other sect ions of the Land
3 Development Code, there is provisions in Chapter 1
4 that talk about how to interpret the Land
5 Development Code. And it is the typical stuff
6 where "sha II" í s mandatory. The prov i s i on I just
7 read to you says that "no m i n i ng perm i t sha I I be
8 required" if we get a minor site plan approval,
9 That is a mandatory provision, That is not a
10 discretionary provision; that is not a "may." It
11 does not say "un I ess the Growth Management
12 director determ i nes otherwi se," or for some other
13 reason." Sha I I n is mandatory, There is no
14 discretion in that provision,
15 The other provision in Chapter 1 says that
16 the specific wi II override the general, In
17 genera I, you have a def in it i on in Chapter 2 that
18 says mining is the extraction of material and
19 haul ing more than 100 cubic yards offsite. We
20 would trigger that definition. We are -- What is
21 proposed, again, for the sake of argument, as
22 mining activity, but now there is a specific
23 prov i s i on that says "except." Except you don't
24 need a permit for a mine, if you're doing a site
25 plan, We are doing a site plan. That's our basic
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1 legal argument,
2 Now, this appl ication was submitted to Staff
3 in December of 2Q07. Staff says it was, in
4 essence, started admitted into the system in
5
January, mean
excuse me, Correct that.
6 Submitted in December of 20Q6. Started Staff
7 review in January or 2007. Appl ¡cation was found
8 complete in June or 2007. It had two or three
9 sets of Development Review Committee, DRC.
10 comments. F ¡led responses. A I the way up unt i I
11 October. At no time was there ever any mention
12 that a mining permit would be needed for this
1 3 proj ect , And the reason be i ng is that, because
14 it's a site plan appl ication, past practice and
15 position, pol icy, and holding of the County is
16 that a mining permit is not required.
17 There has been numerous times that
18 Mr. Powley, the county engineer, has testified at
19 pub I i c hear i ngs in front of the Board of County
20 Commissioners, when asked this specific question
21 whether or not a site plan needs to also obtain a
22 mining permit, he has said on the record that a
23 mining permit is not required.
24 What I would I ike to submit into the
25 evidence, and we were going to try to play it, but
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1 they were having audio difficulties, is testimony
2 of Mr. Powley from the Board of County
3 Commissioners meeting from February 20th of 2007.
4 The project under discussion was Celebration
5 Point, a subdivision along Jenkins Road. The
6 issue came up as to whether or not they needed a
7 mining permit in relationship to the lakes that
8 they were digging on site. And there was actually
9 a specific reference to the Ideal Holding Road
10 proj ect that came up in front of the Board a
11 couple of years before, and whether they needed a
12 m i n i ng perm it. I wi I I subm i t th is. I have a
13 transcript of the testimony on this DVD. It's
14 very short. I will read it into the record and
15 then I wi I I also submit that.
16 MR. HARRIS: Thank you,
17
MR. FERGUSON: Again, one of the issues that
18 the County Commission was discussing that morning
19 was whether or not the Ce I ebrat i on Po i nt proj ect
20 needed a mining permit, Mr, Powley was then asked
21 to come to the Staff table and give his opinion as
22 to whether or not they needed it. And this is
23 Mr. Powley's testimony. Quote: "Mr. Chairman,
24 and Commissioner Coward, with respect to minIng
2S permit appl ications, site plans approved by the
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1 Board of County Commissioners are expl icitly .
2 exempted from the m i n i ng perm it requ i rements , "
3 End quote. That is on the DVD. They then go on
4 to ta I k about whether or not the proj ect on I dea I
5 Holding Road needed a mining permit. Mr. Powley
6 testified that they did not need a mining permit,
7 that it was -- that the Mining Permit Appl ication
8 that was submitted earl ier for this property was
9 at the d i scret i on of the App I ¡cant, And
10 Mr, Powley's testimony was that Staff advised the
11 Appl icant that they did not need a Mining Permit
12 Appl ication or a mining permit, if they were going
1 3 to do a PUD.
14 . But according to Mr. Powley. the Appl icant
15 dec i ded to go forwa rd with ami n i ng perm i t
16 appl ¡cation, But the testimony is clear and there
17 has been other test í mony on other proj ects for
18 Mr. Powley, who is the' person authorized to review
19 and issue mining permits, according to the Land
20 Development Code, not the Growth Management
21 director, not Mr. Satterlee, that mining permits
22 are specifically expl icitly exempted from -- the
23 necessity to receive a mining permit is expl icitly
24 exempt if you are going through the site plan
25 app I i cat i on process,
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1 And I wi I I submit the transcript of that
2 testimony to accompany the DVD,
3
4
MR. HARRIS: Thank you.
MR. FERGUSON: The final point. And if I may
5 ask, either Mr. Satterlee, since he has appeared,
6 or Mr. Szynkowski, a few questions.
7
MR. SATTERLEE: Yeah, hold on one second.
8 John.
9
am sorry, Go ahead.
10 Mark Satterly, Growth Management Director,
11 for the record.
12
MR, FERGUSON: And these questions might be
13 more appropr i ate for Mr, Szynkowsk i, But.
14 Mr, Satterlee, in your experience at the County or
15 through reviewing fi les that predate your
16 employment by the County, have you ever seen a
17 residential development project, whether it be a
18 minor site p I an. maj or site p I an or a PUD, that
19 also was accompanied with a Mining Permit
20 App I i cat ì on?
21
MR, SATTERLEE: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ferguson,
22 can't say that I have had enough experience. you
23 know, and time to review all of those, So in my
24 experience I haven't seen it. But I can't say
25 that that has not happened or it has happened.
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1
MR. FERGUSON: If I may ask Mr. Szynkowski
2 the same question
3
4
MR. HARRIS: Sure.
MR, FERGUSON: -- since he has been here a
5 bit longer.
6 And, Mr, Szynkowski, if you could, for the
7 record, say how long you have been working for St.
8 Lucie County in the Planning Department.
9
MR. SZYNKQWSKI: I have been working as a
10 senior planner in the Planning Division for two
11 years and four months.
12
MR. FERGUSON: In your experience with
13 St. Lucie County in reviewing site plans, have you
14 ever seen a site p I an that was accompan i ed by a
15 Mining Permit Appl ¡cation?
16 MR, SZYNKOWSK I: No, I had not. But I did
17 participate in a pre-appl ¡cation where that was
18 going to be required as part of the site plan --
19
20
21
22
MR. FERGUSON: Okay.
MR. SZYNKOWSK I : -- prior to the site plan.
MR. FERGUSON: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Cha i rman , Members of the Boa rd , I would
23 submit that the County has never required a site
24 plan appl ¡cation, whether it be a minor site plan,
25 maj or 5 i te p I an, a PUD, to be accompan i ed by a
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1 Mining Permit Appl ication, It is either one or
2 the other, And there are numerous examples out
3 there of projects that have been approved with far
4 larger lake systems and far more excavation
5 involved, where a Mining Permit Appl ication was
6 not requ ired, Another proj ect, where Mr. Pow I ey
7 was asked specifically the question. is the Creek
8 Side proj ect, wh i ch is located on the sòuth side
9 of State Road 70, immediately west of the
10 turnpike, Anyone who has travel led that road can
11 see the I a rge dirt mounds that a re on that site.
12 That proj ect has over 70 acres of I akes that were
13 approved to be excavated.
14 Mr. Powley was asked during the publ ic
15 hea ring for the äpprova I of that proj ect, whether
16 that proj ect needed ami n i ng perm it in order to
17 haul that dirt offsite. And his testimony was
18 that it did not because it was being approved as a
19 PUD, and therefore, was exempt from the mining
20 permit requirements, That has more than twice the
21 amount of dirt that this property could generate,
22 given the size of the lakes. Another proj ect that
23 was approved recently that has over 70 acres of
24 I akes that is s i mil ar to th i s proj ect in where it
25 is located is Hunter's Run, which is at the south
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2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1Q
11
12
13
14
. . 15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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24
25
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end of Germany Canal Road (phonetic) which is off
of Carlton Road. It has an AG land use of AG-5,
zoning of AG-5, and has over 70 acres of lakes
proposed. No mining permits required for that
project. No questions were asked as to the amount
of material hauled offsite or not hauled offsite,
No questions were asked as to the amount of truck
traffic.
However, that is getting outside the scope of
what your review is today, Whether those
questions are appropriate, that is part of the
site plan review process, and we wi I I deal with
.those in turn. But the question of whether or not
we have to submit a Mining Permit Appl ication is
clear. The Code provides for an expl icit
exemption. It is not required, It is an
unnecessary step, The testimony of Mr. Powley,
that is on that DVD says that the review process
is identical, whether you are reviewing a site
plan or a Mining Permit Appl ¡cation. So,
therefore, a Mining Permit Appl ¡cation, in
addition to a Site Plan Appl ¡cation is redundant
because Staff is reviewing the same information,
can request the same information. And the
external permits, South Florida Water Management
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1 District, DEP, the Army Corps of Engineers permits
2 are either identical or undergo a simi lar review.
3
4 For what it is worth, th is proj ect has
5 enhanced South Florida Water Man~gement District
6 permits. They are not for a mine, which is a
7 separate permit, a difforent permit. They have an
8 ERP, Environmental Resource Permit, which al lows
9 them to bui ld a residential subdivision,
10 If the County requires this Appl icant to go
11 back and resubmit a mining appl ¡cation, it would
12 have to resubmit South Florida permit
13
app I i cat ions.
mean, it's bas i ca I I Y start i ng a I I
14 over and it throws out the last 15 months of
15 review of the Minor Site Plan Appl ¡cation and
16 makes that nul I and void.
17 To conclude, past history, pol icy, practice
18 of the County is consistent with the very clear
19 black and white language of the Land Development
20 Code that a Mining Permit Appl ication is not
21 required, so long as this Minor Site Plan
22 Appl ication continues through the process and is
23 under review. The sole issue that we are asking
24 you to determine today is to make a finding that
25 Mr, Satterlee, the Growth Management director, was
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1 incorrect in requiring this Appl icant to submit a
2 Mining Permit Appl ication, and to remand this
3 project back to Growth Management with a direction
4 that it be reviewed as a Minor Site Plan
5 Appl ication and that the review continue.
6
I wi I I be happy to answer any questions. And
7 thank you for your ì ndu\ gence,
B
MR. HARRIS: Thank you.
9 Board members, do you have any questions for
10 Mr. Ferguson?
11
12
13
14
MR. EMERSON: I have a couple.
MR. HARRIS: Chief Emerson.
I can count on you.
MR. EMERSON: You cited some examples, How
15 many units of developm?nt are in Creek Side?
16
17
18
19
MR. FERGUSON: Several hundred, if I recal I ,
MR. EMERSON:. How many in Hunter I s Run?
MR, FERGUSON: My recollection is about 70.
MR, EMERSON: I can think of others, too.
20 Celebration, you mentioned. Rocking Horse Ranch,
21 to which the -- you would find a number of units
22 of development.
23
24
25
MR, FERGUSON: Absolutely,
MR. EMERSON: And how many in this project?
MR. FERGUSON: Right now it is -- it is
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1 planned as four lots.
2
MR. EMERSON: And a question for Staff, You
3 were asked a question by Mr. Ferguson regarding
4 your experience with respect to site plans that
5 necessitated -- or were required to have a mining
6 permit as wel I. My question is: How many other
7 site plans have you seen in your exper i ence with
8 153 acres that were subdivided into four lots?
9
MR, SATTERLEE: Chief Emerson. I couldn't say
10 that I have ever seen that before. But I would
MR. EMERSON:
MR. FERGUSON:
that very quickly.
MR, HARRIS:
MR. FERGUSON:
is a bit unusua I ,
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1
2
3
MR. EMERSON: (Nods head.)
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Bangert,
MR. BANGERT: In the 12 years that I have
4 been on this Board, we have never ever refused a
5 petitioner the right to a continuance. One time
6 and only one time. This does not change my
7 opinion of whether I approve or dísapprove of your
8 appeal. Period.
9 MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr, Bangert.
10 Staff, do you have any questions fòr
11 Mr. Ferguson?
12
MR, SATTERLEE: No. Mr. Ferguson and I have
13 probably questioned each other
14
15
MR, HARRIS: To death?
..
MR. SATTERLEE: -- to each of our mutual
16 exhaustion.
17
1B
MR. HARRIS: understand,
MR. SATTERLEE: But if I do, I wi I I save them
19 for your presentation,
20
MR. HARRIS: AI I right.
Ms. Andrews?
21
22
MS. ANDREWS:
have a question for Staff,
23 Could the minor site plan, when it is submitted,
24 be approved with conditions, such as I imiting the
25 depth of the excavat i on or I i m ¡ t i ng the amount of
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1 spo i I that can be hau led offs i te?
2
3
MR, SATTERLEE: In my opinion, yes.
MS. ANDREWS: In which case a mining permit
4 would not be required?
5
MR . SATTERLEE: I just th j nk that what
6 happens with the Mining Permit Appl ication is that
7 it affords a publ ic hearing and it affords certain
8 steps and activities that the, you know, the
9 person receiving the permit must take, including,
10 you know. protection, mitigation, restoration, you
11 know, al I of the sorts of things, you know, that
12 would happen and might not -- would not happen
13 just under, you know, potentially not happen, you
14 know, under a minor approval I ike this. This
15 cou I d go on for years. There wou I d be
16 no - - potent i a I I Y no protect i on for the County or
17 for the residents or for the restoration of the
18 roadway, restoration of the mine, should the
19 proj ect go bust, And, you know, that i s just I eft
20 with a big hole out there, and for somebody else
21 to cleanup in the future.
22 So, you know. I think you could probably
23 condition it that way. But obviously my
24 preference is that this -- afford the County the
25 protections that are, you know, issued under the
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1 Mining Permit Appl ication.
2
MS. ANDREWS: Yet, excuse me, but those were
3 not required in these other subdivisions that were
4 ment i oned, wh i ch had potent i a I I Y the same --
5 MR. SATTERLEE: Yeah. I cannot speak to that
6 or the County's past practices. You know, al I
7 can te I I you is that, you know, when I loak at
8 someth i ng like th is, I am requ i red to use my
9 profess i ona I judgment and what I be I i eve i s my
10 fiduciary responsibi I ity to the County, to the
11 Board of County Commissioners, to the citizens, as
12 we I I as the App I i cant, and make a profess i ona I
13 ca I I as to, you know, what my author i ty i sand
14 what I am permitted to do, and request under, you
15 know, under the appl ication process.
16 We spent a lot of time with the
17 administrative staff, with the assistant county
18 administrator, with the county administrator, with
19 the Legal Department, making sure we were within
20 our authority to request this additional
21 information, and to, you know, to move ahead as we
22 have.
23 Does that answer your question, Ms, Andrews?
24
MS. ANDREWS: Wel I, not exactly, because you
25 admit that you can condition -- impose conditions.
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1 One of them which could be a bond so that they
2 couldn't go in and dig a hole and leave town,
3
4
MR. SATTERLEE:
sti I I think the formal
process is the way to go.
mean, I think we are
5 proposing a 32-acre lake that is up to 25 feet
6 deep, hau ling a potent i a I of up to 1.3 m ¡'I ion
7 cubic yards of material from that site. And, you
8 know, that to me -- that is mining activity. And
9 I don't think that it ·would be appropriate to
10 condition it under a minor site plan. That is my
11 opinion,
12 And I think I am -- you knoW, have
13 the support of the administrative staff and
14 counsel on that.
15 MS, ANDREWS: Excuse me. That is your
16 opinion, but it could be done; that is. that these
17 conditions could be imposed.
18
MR. SATTERLEE: Yes, I bel ¡eve it could be
19 done, yes,
20
21
MS. ANDREWS: Thank you.
MR. EMERSON: Mr. Chairman, since Ms. Andrews
22 raised the question, I wi I I ask the other extreme.
23 Cou I d you have rej ected the site p I an?
24 MR. SATTERLEE: I think it's difficult to
25 rej ect 5 I te plans. I mean, we cou I d, but
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1 that's -- I don't I ike to operate that way. We
2 cou I d just say, Look, th i s does not meet the ru I es
3 of the County, and we could be here having a
4 different discussion about that, But, you know,
5 my goal ís always to try and find a solution that,
6 you know, works for the Appl ícant, works for the
7 County, you know, . protects - - prov i des adequate
8 protection for the neighbors and the people that
9 are impacted by the activity going on. That's my
10 exper i ence.
11
MR, EMERSON: I wi I I rephrase the question.
12 If you found that the site plan didn't meet
13 the Code requirements, wasn't compatible with
14 surrounding areas, that there were adverse
1 5 impacts --
16
MR, SATTERLEE: Yes, I could have rejected
17 it.
18
MR. EMERSON: -- you could have rejected it?
MR. SATTERLEE: Yes.
19
20
21
22
23
24
MR. EMERSQN: That's al I I have.
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Bangert?
MR. BANGERT: (Shakes head.)
MR, HARRIS: Mr. Ferguson.
MR. FERGUSQN: I'm not sure if Staff is going
25 to make a presentation, but if they do, I would
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1 request an opportunity to have a brief response.
2
MR. HARRIS: You would have this opportunity,
3 si r,
4
5
MR. FERGUSON: Thank you.
MR, HARRIS: Staff, you have a video, a DVD
6 that you wanted to show the Board members, sir?
7
MR. SATTERLEE: We don't today, We have a
8 Powerpoint presentation that I am going to let
9 Larry -- Mr. Szynkowski go through in a few
10m i nutes, But I just, you know, want to prov i de my
11 testimony.
12 And, again, my name is Mark Satterlee, I am
13 the Growth Management director. Amer i can
14 Institute of Certified Planners. I have a degree
15 in Planning from the Georgia Institute of
16 Technology, I have been a professional planner
17 for 18 years in the State of Florida, have
18 appeared before, you know, boards of adj ustments
19 for many years, provided testimony and substantial
20 competent evidence in al I these sorts of
21 proceedings.
22 Just to give you a I ittle bit of background,
23 began with the County in mid September of 2007.
24 have had the pleasure of meeting with Mr, Dennis
25 Murphy, Mr. and Mrs, Powers, and another person
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1 whose name escapes me, to discuss this, They were
2 proceeding with their plan through the process
3 and, you know, were just seek í ng, you know, my
4 input and assistance, I guess, because they had
5 run into issues with the plan.
6
met with them and talked about this. This
7 was in October of - - October the 18th or 19th, I
8 be I i eve, of 2007. And, you know, th i s was --
9 had been here just a few weeks and, you know, they
10 were - - went over the i r issues and I listened to
11 them, and then at that point began to think about
12 what was being proposed and the amount of material
13 that could be removed. And at that time in the
14 meeting they portrayed to me this was going to be
15 an 8-foot-deep lake, primari Iy for waterski ing,
16 And that, you know, a I I of the issues that have
17 gone on about the previous mining permit
18 appl ¡cation, and it's not what they wanted to do.
19 But as I began to look at the appl ication,
2Q and began to look at the permits that they had
21 received from South Florida -- from the water
22 management district, it became clear to me that
23 this could be a very substantial amount of
24 material moved off the site. Because the permit
25 says, in the background of the material -- the
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1 permit says that this is -- "Material to be
2 excavated is to be removed offsite and be used to
3 f i I I in other proj ects ." And even when I
4 calculated out that you would have an 8-foot-deep
5 lake of 32 acres, that that would be some 40Q,OQO
6 cubic yards of materials. If you divide that by
7 20 yards per truck and -- that is, you know,
8 potentially thousands of trucks a day going up and
9 down, you know, Ideal Holding Road,
10 And so my natural instinct was request this
11 information from Mr, Murphy; you know, please
12 clarify how much material you think you are going
13 to be moving, And that has been a question I have
14 asked repeatedly of the Appl icant, I think in
15 back up of the e-ma i Is, start i ng from the e-ma i Is
16 to a II of the letters. And we just have never
17 received that information.
18 So, you know, I feel I ike I have probably
19 been backed into a corner that -- You know,
20 provide the information and if this is not what
21 you are going to do, if you're not going to mine·
22 this material, if you're going to keep it on site,
23 if you are going to raise the level of land,
24 create a berm, you know, amend your appl ¡cation.
25 We wi I I be happy to review the appl ication that
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1 way.
2
So we didn't receive the information. So,
3 you know, like I sa i d I that i s sort of back i ng the
4 Staff and the County up into a corner. And as
5 looked at the permit appl ication, South Florida
6 showed a prpfi Ie of this lake of up to 25 feet
7 deep, So, redid the calculations, that is
8 potent i a I I Y more mater í a I, potent i a I I Y more
9 impacts.
10 So, you know, and I. .th i nk that, you know, to
11 Johnathan's point about the exemption in the Code,
12 the Code, I think. exempts activities where you
13 are taking a site and you are developing -- you
14 are creating lakes, you act as a storm water
15 management fac i I i ty for a subd ¡vi s i on, wh i ch
16 includes multiple, hundreds, potentially hundreds
17 of houses, driveways, sidewalks, roadways, al I of
18 those things that you make part of a subdivision.
19 There is none of that going on here, We have a
20 32-acre lake for four lots. And that is fine,
21 that is great,
22 However, al I of that material that is going
23 to be excavated and removed from there, and go up
24 and down Ideal Holding Road for, you know, two
25 years? I mean, that is -- you can do the
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1 calculations on removing 1.3 mi I I ion cubic yards
2 of material and how many trucks that would be,
3 But it's thousands, it's thousands and thousands
4 of trucks, with potentially, you know, no
5 protection for the County.
6 So, you know, in my professional judgment,
7 and, you know, meeting with the administrative
8 staff and the counse I, you know ¡twas our
9 determination that this should receive a mining
10 permit, If there is some kind of a loophole in
11 the Code, that certainly can be addressed. But
12 sti I I think it is also -- the Code does not
13 envision every absolute circumstance or outcome
14 and can't cover everything. So there is always
15 general language. And I think that that language
16 ex i sts .
17 And so, that was at our requirement, that
18 they come in, they do a Mining Permit Appl ication,
19 they provide the protections they are afforded
20 and, you know, the activities that are attendant
21 to a mining permit. And then, you know, we would
22 be happy to go ahead and, you know, finish up with
23 the minor site plan.
24 That is the basis of my presentation.
25 apo log i ze . It' s a I I tt I e scattered. I was
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1 assuming that you would, you know, see to the
2 Appl icant's request. But be that as it may,
3 Mr. Szynkowsk i will kind of wa I k you through the
4 Powerpoint presentation that we have that we would
5 I ike to enter into the record.
6
MR. HARRIS: Mr, Satterlee, before we get
7 started on the Powerpoint, I had stated earl ier in
8 the meeting that we were going to break at 11 :30
9 so Staff could have lunch.
10
MR, SATTERLEE: Wel I, let me see. How many
11 s I ides?
12
13
14
15
MR. SZYNKOWSKI: 23.
MR. HARRIS: 23.
All right, folks
MR, SATTERLEE: We could wait on it. It's
16 entirely up to the Board's --
17
MR. HARRIS: I would prefer that we wait
18 right now to al low other Staff members to have
19 lunch and to al low these folks out here to have
20 lunch. This is a good time. You beat the lunch
21 crowds, you can get back. And we wi I I recess and
22 come back at 1 o'clock.
23 Board members, do you have a problem with
24 that?
25
MR. SATTERLEE: Cha i rman, just for the'
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1 record, I have other meetings scheduled this
2 afternoon at 2 o'clock. So -- but my Staff wi II
3 be here, Mr. Szynkowski wi I I be here. Mr. Meyer,
4 and. you know, any -- If I have to leave at a
5 certal n point. that they wi II be here to, you
6 know, to provide, you know. the Staff.
7
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Satterlee.
8 Folks, we are going to recess for a whi Ie, Please
9 come back at 1 o'clock, if you have anything else
10 to say.
11 (Thereupon, a lunch break was taken.)
12
MR. HARRIS: Are we ready? Ladies and
13 gentlemen, welcome back. We are now in session
14 again. And we're going to get a brief
15 presentation -- excuse me -- presentation from
16 Growth Management Senior Planner,Larry
17 Szynkowsk i .
1B
19
MR. SZYNKOWSKI: Or not.
MR. HARRI S: Or not.
20 MR. SATTERLEE: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman,
21 Members of the Boa rd. We just need to make sure
22 that that is on. It's powered up.
23
MR, HARRIS: Technical difficulties. Bear
24 with us, please,
25
MR. SATTERLEE: We may have exceeded my
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1 technical capabi I ities.
2
3
MR, HARRIS: understand.
MR. SATTERLEE; Mr. Chairman, before we start
4 and, you know, if we can't get this up right away,
5 then we can certainly, you know, take other
6 testimony or whatever, unti I the system is working
7 again, Just real quickly, some comments that
8 Board members had made, Particularly, Ms, Andrews
9 had wondered if this could be done -- some of
10 these things could be addressed as conditions 'of
11 approval and of the minor site plan, And my
12 response was yes, and -- but having, you know,
13 having thought about it a I ittle bit more, you
14 know, I st i I I th ink that, you know, you cou I d do
15 it that way, You know, I would highly recommend
16 against that simply because, you know, the
17 conditions in the mining appl ication are very
18 extensive and the criteria are very extensive, so
19 I think it would be much more appropriately
2Q handled there.
21 Secondly, as a minor site plan this kind of
22 activity doesn't have a publ ic hearing process,
23 which then does not necessari Iy allow affected
24 property owners or adj acent property owners or the
25 County or others, who might be interested, to have
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1 an opportunity ~o, you know, participate in the
2 decision-making process.
3
And that speaks to your
the other point
4 about -- one of the points that Mr. Ferguson was
5 making; that, you know, the site plans typically,
6 you know, are specifically exempted in the Land
7 Development Code. And, again, but site plans
8 sti I I have a hearing, they sti I I have a publ ic
9 process that they go through; wherein, you know,
10 affected people are noticed or there is notice in
11 the paper, there is a publ ic meeting, it is on
12 television, there is discussion about it in front
13 of the Board of County Commissioners.
14 So, you know, at least in the process for
15 this county's activity, I think that if you are
16 proposing this kind of activity that, you know.
17 the publ ic has a right to know and has a right to
18 participate. So for that reason, I guess, you
19 know, that is why I would -- I would, you know
20 you could do it that way, but I don't think
21 that -- I don't think that that is -- I don't
22 think that is serving the publ ie. I guess. would
23 be my -- would be my feel ing about that, my
24 opinion about that.
25 Now, I wi I I let Mr. Szynkowski go through the
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1 presentation. It covers some of the ground, but
2 it is entered into the record, and we wi I I kind of
3 go through it quickly so we can move on. Thank
4 you.
5
6
MR, HARRIS: Thank you, sir,
MR, SZYNKQWSKI: Mr. Chairman and
7 Commissioners. Commissioners of the Board of --
8 MR. HARRIS: Board members,
9
MR. SZYNKOWSK I :
did read somewhere that
1 Q you're referred to as "comm i ss i oners . "
11 Larry Szynkowski, Senior Planner, Growth
12 Management Division. This is a notice of appeal.
13 This is the actual notice of appeal submitted by
14 Johnathan Ferguson, agent for the Citrus Lakes
i 5 Estates, Car I Powers, App I ¡cant. And it refers to
16 the letter sent and the reasoning for the appeal.
17 The Growth Management director, Mark Satterlee,
18 required the approval of mining permit for
19 conditional use for Citrus Lakes Estates and the
20 minor subdiviSion, This is the letter to the
21 agent requiring that the process go through
22 conditional use and mining permit for the 32-acre
23 lake. And then once the Mining Permit Appl ¡cation
24 is approved, the minor site plan for the four
25 lots, Citrus Lakes Estates, can continue through
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1 the approva I process as we II.
2 The proj ect history shows that back in
3 September of 20Q3, there was a conditional use of
4 Major Site Plan Appl ication by the appl icants on
5 this property, for a sand mine of about 34 acres
6 at 2Q feet below the water table. And in July of
7 the next year, 2004, there was a rezone and
8 planned unit development, Q4-024 submitted by the
9
App I i cant on
for this property for 30
10 residences with 33 acres of lake at the same
11 I eve I .
12 And also there was a withdrawal by the
13 Appl icant within about five weeks of that rezone
14 and PUD. Eventua I I Y on 10/19/2004, the Board of
15 Commissioners denied the conditional use for a
16 mine because of the adverse effects on the
17 neighborhood. And then in December of 20Q6 the
18 appl ication for the four single-fami Iy parcel
19 subdivision; those parcels would be about 38 acres
20 each. That included -- the appl ¡cation had a
21 38-acre lake, and it also included South Florida
22 Water Management permits for mining and for
23 de-watering.
24 The review was done by Staff, beginning in
25 January of 2007, by the Technical Review
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1 Committee, and included more than the Growth
2 Management, who was actually the Development
3 Review Committee, done informally in February.
4 There were a number of comments that were only
5 kept records by -- by notes. And there were no
6 formal recordings of those proceedings.
7 A number of those did include comments
B regarding the effects on the roads and the
9 neighbors,
10 The App I i cant met with myse If, the proj ect
11 manager and in my office stated that he wants to
12 "donate the excavated dirt from the lake for State
13 Route 70 construct ion fi II "; that was in March of
14 2007 .
15 The agent resubmitted new documentation in
16Apr i I or 20Q7 for the app I i cat í on, You have seen
17 the aerial review before with the 152-plus acres
18 in red, This is the current minor site plan;
1 9 Idea' Ho I ding Road on the I eft, the two segments
20 of the lake connected in the middle at
21 32.82 acres.
22 In May of 2007 there was a letter from the
23 Development Review Committee mai led to the agent.
24 There was a meeting held with the agent, And in
25 June -- By the way, the documents are in your
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1 packets; you can refer to them.
2 In June of 20Q7, the agent resubmitted the
3 landscape, draining plat -- prel iminary plat, that
4 is the watering plan for the lake at the 32 acres
5 and 25-foot depth.
6 In July there was a second review by the ORe.
7 The agent participated and a letter was sent to
8 the agent, It's also in your packet.
9 And in August of 2Q07, South Florida Water
10 Management issued a modification at the request of
11 the Appl icant. The Staff comments. The South
12 Florida Water Management Staff engineer stated on
13 page 2 of his or her comments that the "mater i a I
14 excavated from the lakes is proposed to be hauled
15 offsite and used as fi II for other projects."
16 In October 1st of 2007, there was another
17 re-submittal by the agent, Culpepper & Terpening,
18 of the pre I i m i nary p I at I andscape up I and
19 management plans, property owners documents and
20 drainage calculations. Within three weeks there
21 was a petition received in Growth Management by
22 the property owners of nearby developments. And
23 there were 78 signatures on that petition.
24 On the 19th the Growth Management director
25 met with the Appl icants and the agents. And on
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1 November the 2nd, the Growth Management director
2 met with representatives from the surrounding
3 developments,
4 And on November the 8th there was a letter
5 from the landscape architect on the project,
6 Sabine Marcks, that responded to the neighbors'
7 concerns, She was at that meeting at 1Q/19. This
8 is the de-water and phasing plan that was
9 subm i tted by the App I ¡cant, Phase 1 on the west,
10 phase 2 on the east, part of the lake. And there
11 are over 21 acres of holding ponds on the north
12 and on the south.
13 This was the page with the comment from the
14 South Florida Water Management engineer stating
15 that the material would be hauled offsite to be
16 used lor other proj ects .
17 This is the mining definition from the Land
1 8 Oeve I opment Code. "Any act i v i ty that enta i I s
19 excavation of more than 100 cubic yards and taken
20 off or left on the site to another area on the
21 same parce I, if a pub I i c road is used." And put
22 that in sequence after that comment from the South
23 Florida Water Management engineer,
24 The present project design was that the lake
25 was solely to be used lor a storm water tract,
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1 which is far above the need since there aren't any
2 of the impervious requirements for a storm water
3 tract. The material could be excavated in excess
4 of the need that was stated, raising elevations of
5 pads for home sites and for other structures. And
6 there is a quote again, Plus there is a chart
7 with the lake excavation estimates, the director's
B estimates, 3Q acres, depth of 8 feet, 38 -_
9 387,OQO cubic yards; that comes out to truckloads
10
of 21.5 thousand.
did another calculation with
11 the actual 32.82 at 9 feet, as an alternative, and
12 that comes close to ami I I i on - - ha I f ami I I i on
13 cubic yards rather, and another 5,000 trips.
14 This is the depth of the lake shown on the
15 dra i nage deta i I subm i tted by the agent. I t shows
16 the access driveway on the right, 20-foot, minimum
17 maintenance, I ittoral zone required by the
18 Environmental Resources Department, and the depth
19 of the I ake shown as 5 feet.
20 This is the actual petition from the 78
21 neighbors; that's the cover letter showing you
22 74 percent of the neighbors totally at that time,
23 in October 19th. In the meeting with the Growth
24 Management director and the Appl icant and agents,
25 they stated that the material would be used for a
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1 perimeter berm and to elevate the land for future
2 development, They repeated that on the the
3 agent stated that they would fol low the Land
4 Development Code after, after that meeting. The
5 Growth Management director did the rough
6 calculations mentioned of 387,000 cubic yards of
7 sand excavated. And he sent an e-mail letter to
8 Dennis Murphy, the agent in charge for Culpepper &
9 Terpening, stating that he would I ike further
1Q information.
11 And he determined that the scope and the
12 sca I e of th i s proj ect was not exempt from ami n i ng
13 perm it,
14 And you can -- If you can read this,
15 possibly, it would show that the calculations are
16 very conservative with only showing 20 or
17 30 truckloads a day, and 7,700 truckloads that was
18 done by the director, The App I i cant I s appea lis
19 based on Section 11.05.11.8,1 ,B, as he stated,
20 that no mining permit shal I be required for site
21 p I an approva I. And no other sect ions prov i de for
22 a mining permit,
23 And in summary, the director had informed
24 Johnathan Ferguson by letter of decision and
25 followed Section 11.02 -- pardon me -- 11.02,03
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1 A5A, and stating that he would have a decision on
2 the appI icatìon, according to the code, and also
3 stated that the Development Review Committee had
4 not submitted a final determination themselves;
5 there was no di rection officially.. The letter
6 from the Growth Management director continues,
7 fo I low i ng the process for rev i ew, 11.02,07, wh i ch
8 i nc I udes the effect on nearby propert i es, and
9 another Section 11.02.03 A4B, notifying him of
10 deficiencies. And there are requirements under
11 11.Q2~02 81 for the minor site plan, but that the
12 minor site plan scope has been far exceeded
13 because of the 32-acre lake.
14 They reference the mining permit section,
15 Exempt i ng the minor site p I an was a I so referenced,
16
in stating that the
it appears that this is far
17 more than a minor site plan, and it should be
18 addressed by the Planning & Zoning and Board of
19 Commissioners. The unresolved issues and
20 quest ions a II cou I d be addressed offi cia II y after
21 the normal process of conditional use; and also
22 the mining permit for that process.
23 So the issues at hand are the actual amount
24 of material to be extracted, the use or uses of
25 material, the effect on the neighboring
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1 properties, the effect on the road and on traffic
2 for the neighbors. They could issue days and
3 hours of operation, and they should also determine
4 what the effect is on the environment, any
5 mitigation needed and any bond that could be
6 required.
7 A I I of th ¡scan be done through pub I i c
8 hearings before the Planning & Zoning and Board of
9 Commissioners, So the proper appl ication and
10 review would be that the subdivision appl ication
11 is premature presently. The conditional use
12 appl ¡cation should be appl ied for and receive
13 approval, along with a mining permit, to receive
14 approval. And then a subdivision appl ¡cation can
15 be continued through process.
16
17
Any questions? Mr. Chairman?
MR, HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Szynkowski,
18 Ms, Andrews, do you have any questions for
19 Staff at this time?
20
21
22
23
24
25
MS. ANDREWS: Not at this time.
MR. HARRIS: Chief Emerson?
MR. EMERSON: Not right now.
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Bangert?
MR. BANGERT; (Shakes head.)
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Ferguson, would you I ike to
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1 respond to Growth Management's statements?
2
MR. FERGUSON: Mr. Chairman, Members of the
3 Board, this country and how we operate is based on
4 the rule of law. There are procedures and
5 processes that are codified. And both parties,
6 the county, appl ¡cants, private, interested third
7 parties, we al I rely on the unirorm, non-arbitrary
8 app i cat í on of those ru I es, We have to be ab I e to
9 rely on what the written rules say; otherwise, the
10 process breaks down and we end up with chaos.
11 In this case, the Land Development Code is
12 clear, Your charge under the Land Development
13 Code, for purposes or considering an appeal, is
14 either to uphold the Growth Management director's
15 decision, if there is competent, substantial
16 ev i dence to support that dec i s ion ,. Otherw i se, if
17 you find that there is competent, substantial
18 evidence to overturn that decision, then that is
19 your charge.
20 Let me submit to you that what Mr. Szynkowski
21 just presented to you, there was not a single
22 piece of competent, substantial evidence that went
23 to the issue that is in front of you, which is
24 whether or not they can require a Mining Permit
25 Appl ¡cation prior to processing a Minor Site Plan
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1 Appl ¡cation. And as the last sl ide that
2 Mr. Szynkowski put up there, the process they want
3 us to go through is go through a Mining Permit
4 Appl ¡cation, get a mine permitted, and then
5 process a minor site plan, That is unprecedented,
6 that has never been requ i red of any proj ect. And
7 as the' testimony by Mr, Powley that was
8 submitted -- engineering -- if we tried to submit
9 an appl ication to Engineering, they wouldn't know
10 what to do with it because there is a Minor Site
11 Plan Appl ication in Growth Management; that's
12 where the review occurs.
13 My expectat i on i s that he wou I d rej ect it,
14 saying it is not required; there is a clear
15 except i on in the Code. The Code is up on the
16 screen. If you read it, it says "no mining permit
17 shal I be required under that section for the
18 fo I low i ng act ¡vi ties," And then i t lists them, A
19 through F. Nowhere in this provision or anywhere
20 else in the Land Development Code are there
21 provisions that say "except" or "in the discretion
22 of the Growth Management director" or if he fi nds
23 there are exceptional circumstances in. reviewing a
24 Minor Site Plan Appl ication, he can, therefore,
25 request a mining permit.
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1
We have to be able to rely on the rule of
2 law. The Code is clear in this case, The County
3 has fa ì led in its burden in that they have not
4 presented you with any competent, substantial
5 evidence to support their position. They have
6 given you a history of the property, they have
7 given you a history of the proj ect, and the
8 rev i ew . A I I of that is i mmater i a I to the po i nt
9 that is in front of you today.
10 As I stated at the beginning, you are not
11 here to make the hard decision as to whether or
12 not th i s proJ ect goes forward. Your so I e charge
13 today is whether or not Mr, Satter I ee is correct
14 in asking us to submit a Mining Permit
15 Appl ication. Clearly, we think he is not.
16 Clearly, we think the safeguards are there in the
17 Code to protect the publ ic interest through the
18 normal process.
19 So we would ask you to consider al I of the
20 evidence that is relevant to the issue, which is
21 whether or not the St, Lucie County Land
22 Development Code requires or may require a site
23 pi an app I j cant to have to go through aMi n i ng
24 Permit Appl ication process prior to having a
25 decision made upon their Site Plan Appl ication.
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2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
,
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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If Growth Management doesn't I ike the Site
Plan Appl ication, then the Growth Management
director has the authority to deny it. And the
process would then go forward based on that
denial. This, arguably, is nothing but
stonewal I ing the project, putting up an
impermissible hurdle that has never been put up
for any other proj ect simp I y because it I S al i tt I e
bit out of the norm, That is not how the process
works. That's not how the rules are written. It
was interesting, on that DVD Commissioner Coward
asked Mr. Powley whether or not the site plan
exception was a loophole. Mr. Satterlee used that
same term earl ier today; whether it's a loophole
or not. It was recognized that site plans do not
need mining permit appl ications.
If Staff, County Commission, has a problem
with the appl ication as represented by this
project, then there is a simple fix. You go back
and amend the Code to deal with it. But you don't
make it up as you go along. You don't impose
standards on an appl icant that have never been
imposed on anyone else and are not supported by
the Code.
So we would respectfully request that you
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1 overturn the Growth Management director's
2 d~term i nat i on that th i s proj ect, pr i or to
3 continuing with the review of its Minor Site Plan
4 Appl ication, must obtain a mining permit, must
5 submit a Mining Permit Appl ¡cation and a
6 conditional use appl ¡cation.
7 8m avai lable for any questions you may
8 have. Thank you very much.
9
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.
10
11
Ms. Andrews, do you have questions?
MS. ANDREWS: No, Comments.
12
MR. HARRIS: Comments?
13
MS. ANDREWS: Just comments.
14
15
MR. HARRIS: Let me go down the line,
Mr, Bangert, do you have questions?
MR. BANGERT: Yeah. John, in looking at
16
17 this, it says, "No mining permit shall be required
18 under this section for the fol lowing activities:
19 Putt i ng i n the ut i lit i es , i nsta I ling foundat ions,
20 digging drainage or mosquito control ditches,
21 drainage ditches, graves, septic tanks, swimming
22 poo Is," Nowhere do I see on here that you don 1 t
23 need a mining permit to put in a 32-acre lake,
24 25 feet deep.
25
MR. FERGUSON: I would answer you,
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1 Mr. Bangert, with a rhetorical question. Did the
2 County require any other project in this county
3 that has dug far larger lakes to get a mining
4 permit? And the answer is no. If you read the
5 continuation of Part S, the first phrase is
6 " i nsta I ling foundat j ons for any bu i I ding," and
7 then "or." It's an "and."
8 "Or other structure."
9 So it can be something other than a bui Iding.
10 "Or undertaking any development authorized by site
11 plan approval, conditional use permit, planned
12 un it deve lopment approva I or bu i I ding perm it. "
13 would submit to you that the Powers have the
14 authority to get a bui Iding permit for a single
15 house and dig those lakes and haul off as much
16 dirt as they want, under the current code.
17 Now I if the Staff and County Commi ss i on have
18 a problem with that loophole, then you fix it.
19 But can persona II y te I' you. I have dug a lake
20 on my property pu rsuant to a sing I e- fam i I Y
21 bui Iding permit. And and that is very
22 common, especially in the western parts of the
23 county. And that is the except i on; that "or"
24 bu i I ding perm it. I t a' lowed me to dig a pond on
25 my property, haul off dirt, bring on dirt, it
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1 doesn't matter; it's an exception.
2 Mr. Powley's testimony is -- his testimony to
3 the County Commission was -- when Commissioner
4 Cowa rd asked him, "How much dirt can they hau I
5 offsite?" He said, "We don't ask." That is part
6 of the site plan review process. It's handled
7 under that process.
8 All of the questions that were raised in the
9 Staff presentation are asked and answered as part
10 of the site plan approval process. which is why
11 this exception exists. It would be redundant to
12 require them to get a mining permit.
13 So I would respectfully disagree that this
14 doesn't app I y . I be I i eve it does. And it's been
15 app lied un j form I y, every proj ect ¡nth i s county,
16 from when this Code was adopted.
17
MR, BANGERT: One situation we have today,
1B Johnathan, that we haven't had in the past. We
19 are undergoing a tremendously serious water
20 shortage in th i s state as far as that goes.
21
MR, FERGUSON: Absolutely.
MR. BANGERT: And primari Iy in Southern
22
23 F I or i da. And I I m sure that there wi I I be new
24 restrictions put on a lot of these developments
25 that wi II, poss i b i I ity, hinder the water
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1 production and the safekeeping of our present
2 water supply. The fact that they haven't been
3 written yet is not an excuse.
4
MR. FERGUSON: But Mr, Bangert, as you wel ,
5 know, because water is such a critical issue and
6 it doesn't respect geographical boundaries, the
7 state, in its wisdoms, many years ago establ ished
8 a regional agency to oversee the permitting of
9 water issues. In our case we are governed by the
10 South Florida Water Management District, as you
11 know. The County Code under the stòrm water
12 permitting provisions says that you meet the
13 storm -- the county's storm water regulations when
14 you have a South Florida Water Management District
15 perm i tin hand, That is, "pr i ma fac i e ev i dence, "
16 that you meet the county standa rds, Th is proj ect
17 has a South Florida Water Management District
18 Environmental Resource Permit in hand. It has
19 been issued, It's in effect.
20 Under that review, South Florida looked at
21 a I' of the impacts to groundwater, et cetera,
22 et cetera. That's not the issue today. I don't
23 want to get into a debate with the residents as to
24 whether or not those impacts have been adequately
25 reviewed. But the point is, it has been reviewed.
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1 Those are very serious issues, There is an agency
2 whose charge it is to make sure that those issues
3 are addressed; and that's the South Florida Water
4 Management District.
5 That, again, is part of the process and it's
6 part of the site plan approval process,
7 What if -- If Mr. Satterlee's decision is upheld,
8 then we wi I I have to obtain two different South
9 Florida permits, one for the site plan, the
10 subdivision, and one for the mine. Because they
11 are two different South Florida permit
12 app I i cat ions.
13
Again, that's never been required. That
14 would be extremely onerous and not something that
1 5 the Code ca I I s for,
16
MR, BANGERT; Johnathan, there is one other
17 thing that has never been required: and that is a
18 25-foot I ake for watersk i i ng, I t's never been
19 required in the past. Eight feet would be plenty
20 for waterski ing. And I understand that's the
21 reason for the lake.
22
MR. FERGUSON: That is the reason for the
23 lake. And I be I i eve the App I i cant has to I d the
24 Staff that it wou I d be 8 feet. Aga ì n, I be I ¡eve
25 Ms. Andrews asked whether or not that is a
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1 condition that could be imposed on the site plan,
2 And I bel ieve Mr. Satterlee's answer was that it
3 cou I d .
4 Simply because they have a permit from South
5 Florida that al lows them to dig 25 feet, does not
6 necessa r i I Y mean that they wi I I dig 25 feet. It
7 costs money to dig a lake. It costs money.to dig
8 a deep lake. You know, whether you be I i eve the
9 Powers or not, and clearly the residents do not,
10 the i r g08 lis to dig I akes that can be used for
11 waterski ing. They have certain side slopes that
12 are different than typical storm water lakes,
1 3 et cetera. The perm ita II ows them to go down to
14 25 feet. It doesn't mean that they wi I I go
15 25 feet. But. again, those are technically issues
16 that won I t be reso I ved or addressed or answered
17 unti I the Site Plan Appl ication is -- a decision
18 is made as to whether or not it should be
19 approved, denied or approved with conditions,
20 Right now we are simply trying to get over a
21 hurdle that we feel is an impermissible hurdle to
22 get to that point to answer those questions.
23 Those are not the issues i n front of you today,
24 which would be difficult ones.
25 In front of you today is a very simple
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1 question as to whether or not the Code al lows
2 Mr, Satterlee to request what he is requesting.
3 Thank you,
4
5
6
7
8
MR. HARRIS: Thank you.
Chief Emerson, do you have questions?
MR. EMERSON: Not right now.
MR. HARRIS: Not right now.
Ladies and gentlemen, would anyone I ike to
9 come up and speak? Yes, ma'am. You have spoke
10 before, but I wi I I a I low you to come up aga in.
11 There is a lot at stake here, as does the
12 App I i cant.
13
14
MS. CLOSE: I was here before. My name is
Patricia. I I ive in Aero Acres.
th i nk, as a I I
15 laws, laws can be changed. And maybe it's time
16 for the County -- They don't get changed unti I
17 someth i ng happens where you rea I I Y have to take a
18 look at it; criminal law, whatever, Laws don't
19 change unti I something happens to wake people up.
20 I think maybe now would be a good time for the
21 County to look at some of these laws, to protect
22 the people and the neighbors. Anything can be
23 changed. I just don't th i nk that Mr. Powers
24 should be al lowed to come in here and dump this
25 m i n i ng proj ect .
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1
Like we said before. we don't trust him. And
2 these meetings have been going on since -- for
3 years already. And we believe that his main goal
4 is to make money,
5
Ideal Holding Road is a dead-end road. The
6 air park that I live in is at the end of that
7 dead-end road. AI I of us need Ideal Holding to
B come in and out of our homes.
9
Now, you're talking about truckloads. That's
10 loaded trucks; however many is decided it would
11 take, We I I, they have to get in first. before
12 they go out with the loaded trucks. To me that is
13 double traffic.
14 I just can't j mag I ne th i s proj ect be i ng
15 approved when there is so many people disapproving
16 it. I know what it says there, but I ike I said,
17 maybe it's time for the County to look over some
18 of the laws and really be discreet about what
19 they're doing to their neighbors,
2Q Thank you.
21
MR. HARRIS: Thank you. ma'am.
22 Mr. Storms. did you want to add some
23 information to this conversation?
24
MR. STORMS: Yes, I would. Again, for the
25 record, Larry Storms.
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1 What I would add, maybe it's an
2 advertisement, and that is what is going on in the
3 County right now is ca I I ed the EAR process
4 (phonetic). It's a companion process that, in my
5 mind at least, to what is happening in Chapters
6 10, 11, 12, and of course governing this body, 11
7 being today's subject primari Iy. and 12 being more
8 administrative. The process has been going on,
9 again -- so it is, in fact, the modification of
10 10, 11,12.
11 My concern here today is -- again, I already
12 stated that 1 don't see an exception to the
13 exception in this language. But that aside,
14 would suggest that people do become involved in
15 the process and that this Board not try to
16 essentially do an amendment to the Land
17 Development Code, whether knowingly or
18 unknowingly, as part of this interpretation.
19 So' that is, j n fact, my concern; 10, 11, 12
2Q are going through a process of change, There wi I I
21 be some maj or changes. Your process w í I I
22 ultimately result in change. And the other part
23 of that is to invite the community to participate
24 in that. And'l speak not only with al I of my
25
other pol ¡tical activities here.
am, as a
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1 permitting consultant. but also not representing,
2 but as a member of the Smart Growth Committee,
3 where I have put in count I ess hours in I itera II y
4 looking at how the changes might affect the
5 community.
6 So, end of advertisement, If you have any
7 other questions relative to that, again, I think
8 your charge is, in fact, that code section,
9 I would also empathize, finally, with the
10 Growth Management director in that I recognize, be
11 it by conditional use permit or by having this
12 deemed a maj or site p I an, that wou I d take
13
14
15
16
17
it -- the former, both conditional use permit, the
p & Z, as well as the Board of County
.Comm i ss i oners, the I atter be i ng a maj or site
plan -- tak i ng it the Board of County
Commissioners, without the P & Z, But I,
18 certainly, as I say, empathize with him because
19 know this is a tough decision. But,
20 unfortunately, our current text of the Land
21 Development Code relative to minor site plans puts
22 that decision at his feet, Thank you.
23
24
25
MR. HARRIS: Thank you. Mr. Storms,
Yes, sir.
MR. LECATES: My name, again, is Dave
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1
Lecates.
I ¡ve at Aero Acres. And this attorney
2 brings some very good points up, but I guess the
3 County needs to relook at it. But, however,
4 attorneys tend to be masters of prestidigitation,
5 that is what magicians do; look what I am looking
6 in this hand and you can't see what / am doing in
7 this hand. It seems to me that his presentation
8 was backwards. Maybe' am wrong. Let me try to
9 word it a I ittle bit differently. The County has
10 a I lowed bu-í I ding perm its or -- what do they
11 cal I -- whole developments to go on, In some of
12 these places -- he named some of these piaces
13 where they were major construction sites, There
14 was no home sites around them where people were
15 I i v i ng in. So there was no issue of dust or dirt
16 or tea ring up ex ì st i ng roads in those proj ects ,
17 That's one issue. This one, there is. This
18 one -- our only way into our home, to my home, is
19 down this Ideal Holding Road. And when it gets
20 torn up and a mess --
21 (Electronic interference broadcasted.)
22
MR. LECATES; Was it something I said?
MR. HARRIS: I don't think so, sir. We have
23
24 ghosts,
25
MR. LECATES: It seems to me that the County
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1 has never asked for a mining permit for any of
2 these i n the past. We I I, my way of look i ng at it
3 is the County has made a mistake, al I up unti I
4 this point. We are bringing to the County the
5 fact that they have made mistakes by not requiring
6 mining permits and one should be required, as one
7 should be required in this situation.
8 So it's not a situation, "Oh, we never asked
9 for it in the past, we shouldn't be asking for it
1 0 r.1ow." Yes, I th i nk our peop I e have recogn i zed
11 that a mining permit should be needed. And if we
12 look at it on the -- if we turn the coin over
13 again, why would anybody ever request a mining
14 perm i t for ami ne? Why not just request ami nor
15 subdivision? Go ahead and dig your mine.
16
There has been numerous mines in this county
17 that have been turned down, One recently which
18 we've watched which is close to us, is where they
19 are trying to put a mine on Carlton Road. And
20 that ¡sa very sparse I y popu I ated road, it's a
21 dirt road. And I think it's -- Dickerson is
22 trying to put that in. It doesn't matter. They
23 were turned down because there is a lack of need
24 for ami ne, I ack of need for aggregate, A I I of
25 those issues were part of the decision-making
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1 process by the Board, by the County Commission,
2 bel ¡eve it was, to turn down their right to
3 make -- to create a mine.
4 So, again, the County has made a mistake by
5 not requiring mining permits in the past, they're
6 try i ng to say, "Qh, we never needed them and we
7 don't need them now." but I th ink that that needs
8 to be looked at from the other point of view,
9 Thank you very much.
1Q
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, sir. Is there
11 anyone -- Yes, sir.
12
13
MR. WACK: This is difficult. My name is
Damon Wack.
I ive at 18503 Tranqui I ity Base
14 Lane. Mr. Ferguson, is it, argues that -- seems
15 to me that he is arguing that Mr. Satterlee has
16 exceeded his authority in asking for a mining
17 permit. But I think he has got the authority to
18 determine whether it is a Minor Site Plan
1 9 App I i cat í on or is ita M i n i ng Perm i t App I i cat ion.
20 And I think he is saying that it's a Mining Permit
21 Appl ication, and that he is incorrect in hIs
22 app I i cat i on process. Thanks.
23
24
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, sir.
Anyone else that would I ike to speak?
Yes, sir. You have spoke once, but [ wi I I
25
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95·
1 give you the opportunity again.
2
3
MR. HUDSON: Thank you.
wi II be brief.
4
MR, HARRIS: I appreciate that, sir.
MR. HUDSON: Again, for the record, Mike
5 Hudson, Carlton Country Estates; the address is on
6 record.
7 I am not sure if I can do this, but ask a
8 question of the Staff, My question: They keep
9 asking here, under Item 8, is that under these
10 conditions. do they currently have a site plan
11 approval, a conditional use permit, a PUD, or a
12 bui Iding permit for that site?
'13
MR, SATTERLEE: They do not have an approved
14 plan for that site.
15
MR. HUDSON: Then it's clear that they
16 perfect Iy have a ri ght to ask 'for ami n i ng permit
17 because they do not fal I underneath these rules.
1B
That is fairly clear.
would say also that the
19 notes I have -- on the South Florida Water
20 Management permit expired in '07. It may have
21 been renewed. My records could be poor, But
22
that
I wou I d just I ì ke to make sure that, if
23 someone has that, it could be reviewed and make
24 sure that those permits are sti I I in effect.
25
Those are the only comments I have. Thank
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1 you. I guess, based on that, I do request that
2 you deny the appeal based on this language in the
3 law. Thank you.
4
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Hudson.
5 Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, anyone else?
6 A II right. Look i ng around, I am go i ng to count to
7
3, 1, 2, 3,
am going to return to the Board
8 for discussion. Motion or additional comments for
9 Staff?
10
11
12
MS. ANDREWS: I wou I d like to make a comment,
MR. HARRIS: Ms. Andrews.
MS. ANDREWS: Much has been made of
13 subparagraph B of 11 .Q5.11 .A.2.B. B is one of six
14 subparagraphs. And if you look at the rest of
15 them, Mr. Bangert mentioned this before, we talk
16 about uti I itíes, drainage ditches, mosquito
17 control ditches, parking lots, septic tanks,
18 swimming pools. I think the intent of paragraph
19 B -- sub 2B, was to cover things such as detention
20 ponds -- retention ponds, perhaps even
21 recreational lakes, but not, what is clear to me,
22 as a commercial venture. I am also troubled by
23 the fact that Staff has asked Dennis Murphy, back
24 in October, for clarification of the amount of
25 material to be extracted in this, That, to me, is
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1 te I ling i n and of i tse If. I do be I j eve that
2 Mr. Satterlee has the authority to make an
3 interpretation, and I think that this subparagraph
4 B was not meant to cover in this situation.
5
6
7
8
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Ms. Andrews,
MR, EMERSON: Mr, Chairman.
MR. HARRIS: Yes, sir, Chief Emerson.
MR, EMERSON: I have to disagree with that,
9 don't want my comments to be misunderstood.
10 Because I am a I ifelong resident of St. Lucie
11 County, and I have read very thoroughly the
12 Comprehensive Plan of the County. And if you read
13 the Comprehens i ve P I an, you wi I ¡ read, and I wi I I
14 read it for you so that the people in the audience
15 can understand what my viewpoint is. but I have
16 some reservations about this process.
17 I n the Comprehens i ve P I an, in Goa I 1.1 it
18 says that, "The Comprehens ì ve P I an shou I d ensure
19 that the highest qua I i ty I i v i ng env ironment
20 possible through a mixture of land uses reflecting
21 the needs and desires of the local residents and
22 how they want their community to develop, the goal
23 shal I be implemented by strictly enforcing
24 bui Iding, zoning and development codes, based on
25 obj ect i ves and po lie i es that wi I I enhance
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1 St. Lucie County's natural and man-made resources,
2 wh ¡Ie m i n i m i zing any damage or threat of
3 degradation to the health, safety, welfare of the
4 county's citizens. native wi Idl ife environment
5 through compat i b I e I and uses."
6 That's the very first goal in the plan.
7 Today, even though I understand your concerns, and
8 I share them, the question is not whether this
9 proj ect, based on its mer it, shou I d go forwa rd for
10 us. The decision that's rendered by the Board,
11 and I have to agree with Mr. Ferguson on this, is,
12 does the Code give the Growth Management director
13 the ab i I i ty to bas i ca I I Y requ i re ami n i ng perm it,
14 when the Appl icant is asking for site plan
15 approve I?
16 The procedural problem that I have is, that
17 section of the code that I previously read, and
1B it I s 11.02.03 SA, that says, "The Commun i ty
19 Development director shal I, within five working
20 days fol lowing receipt of a recommendation of the
21 Development Review Committee, issue a decision
22 approving, approving with conditions, or denying
23 the appl ¡cation based on the requirements of this
24 Code. II
25 The Appl icant was given the decision that
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1 says, you need a mining permit. He was not given
2 a dec i s i on that says that your proj ect is
3 approved, your proj ect is approved with cond i t ions
4 or your proj ect is den i ed. He wasn't given any of
5
those things,
have heard Mr, Satterlee's
6 arguments or his issues. My opinion is the
7 proj ect has issues, but the App i cant deserves an
8 answer; an answer that wouldn't involve the
9 discretion of this board, an answer that is
10 clearly defined in the Code as to what is
11 compatible, what has adverse impacts, what doesn't
,12 have adverse· impacts,
13 What I fear in this process is that this
14 Board cou I d potent i a I I Y hear th is case twi ce. We
15 make a decision on whether a permit is needed, a
16 m i n ì ng perm it, then I ater on the proj ect is den ì ed
17 for one reason or another, hypothetically. Then
18 the Appl icant appeals again. And he appeals your
19 decision again to this Board, which could happen.
2Q If the procedures had been fol lowed exactly
21 as they are in the Code, and I share Mr. Storms'
22 concerns re I at i ve to our job in upho I ding the
23 Code, and that segment of the Comprehensive Plan
24 that I just sa i d, that by str i ct I y enforc i ng
25 bui Iding, zoning and development codes, that we're
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1 straying from our purpose.
2 You shouldn't have to rely on (indicating)
3 interpretations of individuals when it's clearly
4 in black and white in the Code. And if the Code
5 i s just fo I lowed, you're protected. The Code i s
6 black and white. You can read the Code. There
7 are protections in the Code for everyone of us.
8 When someone has to interpret those, that's where
9 you get into trouble. And that's why support
10 Mr, Ferguson's position that there is a procedural
11 error here, I'm not support i ng the proj ect. I'm
12 supporting the procedures and fol lowing our Code.
13 And J don't think that the Growth Management
14 director, based on what is in the Code, can
15 require a mining permit during the Site Plan
16 App I i cat i on process, unt i I you give a dec i s i on
17 whether that should be approved, approved with
18 . conditions, or denied.
19
20
MS. ANDREWS: Can I ask a question?
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Chief. That was
21 nicely done.
22 Ms. Andrews.
23
MS, ANDREWS: Do we have a Site Plan
24 Appl ¡cation? My understanding is we do not yet.
25 Is that correct?
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1
MR. SATTERLEE: No, We have a Minor Site
2 Plan Appl ¡cation for a four-lot subdivision with a
3 32-acre lake.
4 I guess to speak to the Chief's point is
5 that, you know, I th i nk that that app I cat í on is
6 premature, Because under the Code a mine is
7 derined as moving 100 cubic yards or material ofr
8 of a site us i ng pub I ic roads to another si te. To
9 me, that is ami ne, It's a different app I i cat í on ,
10 it's a dirrerent process. It meets that
11 def i nit i on , So I fee I like I'm perfect I y with i n
12 my right to request that mining permit because
13 It's not a condition or his -- it's not a
14 condition of his minor site plan. It's a
15 condition that it should come first, And that the
16 minor site plan Is premature because, you know,
17 any way you sl ice it, we're moving up to
18 1.3 mi I I ion yards of -- cubic yards of material,
19 Moving it ofrsite meets the derinition or a mine.
20 So I -- you know, we cou I d argue a I I day
21 long. And that, you know, that this may -- that
22 this language, it doesn't even apply, Because,
23 you know, that is not what we're talking about.
24 We're talking about a mine.
25
Now, I apologize. I have to leave and go to
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1 another meeting. I really appreciate the comments
2 of the Board. mean, I th i nk you a II - - You
3 know, seriously, this is a very difficult
4 dec i s i on. You know, and I wou I d like to make the
5 decisions at my level and not put you al I in this
6 position, Hopefully we won't hear this again but,
7 you know, I really appreciate your time, And
8 thank you very much.
9
10
11
MR, HARRIS: Thank you, Mr, Satterlee,
Mr, Bangert, we haven't heard from you.
MR. BANGERT: About a year ago, a gentleman
12 in town appl ied for a permit for Berth 4 at our
13 port. And it received a lot of publ ic attention.
14 A lot of us went to the State arid ar'gued aga i nst
15 it because it was going to interfere with what an
16 adjacent landowner, which were the taxpayers of
17 this county, owned next to Berth 4. And the State
18 refused to give him a permit to use Berth 4.
19 We had a case ear Ii er today where a man'
20 wanted to put a screen enclosure at his pool that
21 infringed on his setback by 10 feet, Had there
22 been a ne i ghbor in the back that obj ected to that
23 extension, I am certain this Board would have
24 turned it down. But there was nobody there.
25 There were no adjacent landowners that were going
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1 to be hurt by his putting in his extension.
2 In this case we're talking about a
3 development that, in my opinion, is going to cause
4 a lot of harm for adj acent I and owners; whether
5 it's to their property rights or their property
6 values or their road that they had invested for
7 you to bu i I d. I th ink there are changes a II of
8 the time. That's why every seven years we have to
9 review and bring up to date the Comprehensive Plan
10 in this county. Because changes do occur. Things
11 do come up that weren't foreseen before, And
12 think definitely that this is one of them.
13
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Bangert.
14 Ms, Andrew, did you have anything else you
15 wished to add?
16
17
MS. ANDREWS: No.
MR, HARRIS: AI I right. I went back and
18 looked at No.2. 28, "No m i n i ng perm i t sha I I be
19 required under this section, for the fol lowing
ZQ activities: Instal I ing foundations, for any
21 bui Iding or other structures or undertaking any
22 deve I opment author i zed by site p I an approva I . "
23 That "author i zed by 5 i te p I an approva I" kind of
24 got me. Because if we're going to spl it hairs and
25 ook at th j ngs, "sha I I" is mandatory; there is no
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1 doubt about it. But we don't have a site plan
2 approval yet, folks. It's not fair. So I think
3 that the Growth Management director acted within
4 his authority. He is a professional, I ike any
5 professional, he is supposed to think, and think
6 ahead, and think for the benefit of the whole, the
7 whole being the County and the County's citizens.
8 With that said, I am in a position not to
9 support the appea I. but I Just want to vote.
10 wi I I now entertain a motion or further discussion
11 on this item,
12
13
MR. BANGERT: I am prepared to make a motion.
MR. HARRIS: AI I right. Mr, Bangert, if you
14 wi II
15
MR. BANGERT: After considering the testimony
16 presented during the publ ic hearing, including
17 Staff comments and the appeal procedure, as is set
18 forth in Section 11.11.01 of the St. Lucie County
19 Land Development Code, I hereby move that the
20 Boa rd of Adj ustment deny the pet i t i on of St. Luc i e
21 Citrus Consulting, LLC, appeal ing the director of
22 Growth Management's decision requiring the
23 Appl icant to apply for and receive approval of a
24 separate conditional use and mining permit for the
25 proposed extraction and removal of material to
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1 create a 32-acre lake located in an AG-5, one
2 dwe I ling per acre zon i ng d i str i ct, pr i or to site
3 plan approval for the Citrus Lakes Estates minor
4 site plan. Because it is my feel ing that a
5 25-acre lake is not a necessity, it could prove to
6 be a great disturbance to the water supply, it
7 could be a tremendous disturbance to the local
8 landowners, it could be a tremendous harm to Ideal
9 Holding Road. And I think there are situations
10 that arise when the laws that we have in
11 place -- there are situations that arisë which are
12 not covered by those laws.
13
14
MS, ANDREWS: Second that,
MR, HARRIS: AI I right. We have a motion and
15a second. Madam secretary, can I have a rol I
16 ca I I, P I ease.
17
18
THE CLERK: Mrs. Andrews,
MS. ANDREWS: Yes, ma'am, Yes to deny.
THE CLERK: Emerson,
19
20
21
MR. EMERSON: No. ma'am.
THE CLERK: Mr. Bangert,
MR. BANGERT: Yes, ma'am.
THE CLERK: Mr, Harris.
MR. HARRIS: Yes to deny,
Thank you, Thank you for coming. ladies and
22
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25
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gentlemen,
(These proceedings concluded at 2:00 p.m.)
STATE OF FLORIDA )
CERTIFICATE
I, Laura E. Melton, a Registered Merit Reporter, do
hereby certify that a Meeting of the St. Lucie County
Board of Adjustment was held on the 23rd day of Apri I,
2008; that I was authorized to and did transcribe the
proceedings from said meeting; that the foregoing pages
numbered 2 through 105, comprise a true and correct
transcript of same.
Laura E, Melton, RMR
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