HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes 02-27-2009
ST. LUCIE COUNTY
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SMART GROWTH ADVISORY AD HOC COMMITTEE
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ST. LUCIE COUNTY, FLORIDA
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2300 Virginia Avenue
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Growth Management
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Conference Room One
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February 27, 2009
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10:00 A.M.
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A compact disc recording of this meeting, in its entirety, has been placed in the file along
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with these minutes as part of the record. In the event of a conflict between the written
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summary minutes and the compact disc, the compact disc shall control.
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CALL TO ORDER
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15 Chairman Ramon Trias called the meeting to order at 10:12
16 A.M. It was acknowledged that there was no quorum so no official
17 action could be taken during the meeting.
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ROLL CALL
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20 Ramon Trias ................................. Chairman
21 David Kelly ........................ …………………………Committee
22 Member
23 Patricia A. Ferrick ......................... Committee Member
24 Marty Sanders ............................. ……………………Committee
25 Member
26 Rick Reikenis ............................... Committee Member
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MEMBER ABSENT:
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30 Marry Chapman ........................... Vice-Chair
31 Michael Houston .......................... Committee Member
32 Noreen S. Dreyer ......................... Committee Member
33 Sam Comer .................................. Committee Member
34 Larry Storms ................................. Committee Member
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STAFF PRESENT
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37 Kara Wood…………………………Planning Manager, TVC
38 Britton Wilson ……………………. Senior Planner
39 Jeffery Johnson……………………Senior Planner
40 Heather Young…………………… Assistant County Attorney
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OTHERS IN ATTENDANCE
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44 J.P. Gellerman
45 H.M. Ridgeley
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ANNOUNCEMENTS
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2 Sarah Smith will be replacing Dawn Milone as Smart Growth
3 Secretary.
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1.Review the minutes from the February 12, 2009 and February 27,
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2009 meeting for approval.
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9 Mr. Trias called for discussion of the February 12 meeting, however; the
10 committee determined that the minutes can not be discussed approved
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13 The Smart Growth Committee agreed that they would not discuss the minutes
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2.Staff Updates
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18 None
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3.Discussion items.
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A. Review of draft recommendations-revised and consider draft
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recommendations-alternate.
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25 Mr. Trias continued the meeting, openeding up discussion about the revised
26 and alternate Smart Growth Recommendations Memorandaums presented to
27 the committee by Ms. Wood after receiving comments from the committee on
28 how they should proceed with recommendations to the Board of County
29 Commissioners.
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31 Mr. Trias asked the committee for comments regarding the Memorandaums.
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33 Mrs. Ferrick stated that she had faxed comments to Ms. Wood after rigorously
34 going over the tworegarding the draft recommendation memos issued at the
35 last meeting. She reviewed some of her concerns stated in the memo,
36 including:
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38 felt that if the committee was going to recommend a lot of the infill
39 elements such asthe possibility of putting high-rises in between single
40 family areas
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41 that property owners would move towards what the “county” doesn’t
Comment [kyw1]:
Why is this in quotes?
42 want to see happen, tax erosion and “new urbanism flight,”
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43 causing homeowners to movinge outside of the urban service
44 boundary in order to have the life style they desire (single family
45 neighborhoods).
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1 Mrs. Ferrick also mentioned that she found some serious problems
2 with being able to say what she wanted to say about (form based) infill,
3 based on the previous meeting, but a lot of what she wanted to say Formatted: Bullets and Numbering
4 has been included in the comment letter she faxed to the Growth
5 Management office on Wednesday, February 25, 2009. On the other
6 hand, Mrs. Ferrick did mention that she felt form- based infill would
7 work well in a new area such as the TVC, but not in already populated
8 areas.
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10 Mrs. Ferrick also mentioned that a part of what is being proposed now (wide
11 streets and alleysies) existed years ago in her very own neighborhood (White
12 City) and that it was phased out over time by the Commission.. Therefore, to
Comment [kyw2]: I think we need to be careful
how this is phrased. I think she said that certain
13 continue to implement codes that allows for the phasing of rural single family
ROW abandonments have been granted, but this
14 home neighborhoods, which allows for the implementation of mixed use infill,
makes it sound like the Commission took it upon
themselves to obliterate an existing block & street
15 (from a citizens view point) would further cause the deterioration of
pattern.
16 neighborhoods as homeowners seek for the rural lifestyle they desire.
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18 Mrs. Wood stated that she had the benefit of going through Mrs. Ferrick’s
19 comments and that she had some good points that may be addressed during
20 the scheduled presentations.and thinks that they are all things that need to be
21 considered when formulating a form-based code. Mrs. Wood also stated that
22 a good way to address Mrs. Ferrick’s points would be during the Form-based
23 CodeShe suggested that presentation and that if there were any concerns left
24 towards at the end of the presentation that Mrs. Ferrick could bring those
25 things up then specifically.
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27 Mrs. Ferrick agreed.
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29 Mr. Trias stated that if there were no more specific comments regarding the
30 conversation he would show some aerials and other images that would also
31 answer some of Mrs. Ferrick’s concerns with the implementation of the form-
32 based code.
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34 Mr. Trias stated to the committee that all of the ideas are very complex and
35 deal with many different issues and the TVC for example is a very
36 sophisticated tool that is not a simple idea of saying we will have a high-rise
37 next to single family house. Instead there would be a transect zone that goes
38 from very rural preserve areas to very dense areas and everything in
39 between. He also stated that development has to be next to compatible uses.
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41 Mr. Trias also wanted to make clear that just because the focus of the
42 conversation is dealing with infill that all things are important and a part of the
43 over all vision.
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45 Mr. Reikenis, focusing back on the memo, had questions regarding level of
46 service not being addressed in the memo and about parking regulations
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1 under the Urban Form section on page 3 of 10 of the memo. He also
2 commented on the implementation of preferred parking locations, including
3 putting in shade trees, covered parking, and PVC solar collectors for those
4 who choose to use more sufficient means of transportation.
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6 Mr. Reikenis made mention of Leadership in Energy Environmental Design
7 (LEED) Certification and his thoughts that all new projects going forward
8 should be LeeadEED Certified.
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10 Mr. Trias agreed that it is something that the committee should take a look at.
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B. Neighborhoods and Districts presentation- Ramon Trias
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14 Mr. Trias began presenting his power point presentation on what he considers
15 to be large lot areas of the county that does not have any over all
16 neighborhood structure or town.
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18 Mr. Trias stated that these areas should not be like that, because there is
19 plenty of room for agriculture and preserve areas, etc. He said that the areas
20 of the county that are Urban should be designed and planned like urban
21 areas, which he concluded to be a relatively small area of the county. He
22 stated that the majority of the county should be green with plenty of open
23 space and plenty of low density residential areas that are put in a slightly
24 better and more thoughtful pattern. This means incorporating a process that
25 allows planners to do urban planning in smaller increments. gave a
26 PowerPoint presentation on his proposed Neighborhoods & Districts Element
27 Comprehensive Plan amendment. Mr. Trias stated that the TVC gives some
28 great ideas and great tools, both for the environment and increment of urban
29 form, but it only works for very large parcels. He proposed, as a possible
30 solution, two different land use designations to allow planning at smaller
31 increments: Neighborhoods and Districts. This would be similar in concept to
32 the PUD, but it would be much more targeted towards dealing with urban form
33 within the Comp Plan.
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35 Mr. Trias closed the presentation by suggesting that a pattern-book approach
36 needs to be provided within the land development regulations, and passed
37 out the proposed Comprehensive Plan text that would implement the
38 Neighborhoods and Districts land use.
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40 As a response to the presentation, the following summarized points of
41 discussion ensued:
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43 Mrs. Ferrick raised the question again of high-rises allowed in single-
44 family neighborhoods. It was clarified this would be a violation of any
45 form-based or transect-based code that was being discussed.
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1 Mr. Sanders stated that it’s easy to understand the process for
2 preserving environmentally sensitive lands or the core of White City,
3 but what is more thought provoking are those areas that started out as
4 a five acre ranchette and is now subdivide into three two-acre lots that
5 could destroy the whole concept of logical additions to a city.
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6 Mr. Sanders and Mr. Kelly brought up the challenge of having
7 neighborhood-scale schools given the way new schools are funded by
8 the state and the resistance that often comes from communities where
9 a school is proposed.
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10 Mr. Kelly and Mr. Trias discussed the importance of balancing all
11 growth priorities – the planning of the street network that was
12 emphasized in early additions of Fort Pierce, as well as environmental
13 impacts that later became a priority.
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14 Mr. Gellerman and Mr. Sanders pointed out that in earlier downtowns,
15 lack of funds and mobility options (limited to pedestrian activity)
16 necessitated more efficient development.
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19 Mr. Trias then mentioned the TVC. He stated that the TVC gives some great
20 ideas and great tools, both for the environment and increment of urban form,
21 but it only works for very large parcels. He also stated that even the large
22 parcels are not very successful because of the way the market is going. Mr.
23 Trias proposed two different land use designations, which are based on the
24 same development format of the TVC, one being the Neighborhood land use
25 designation with a minimum size of 160 acres, which would have a residential
26 feel to it and the other would be a District that has no minimum size and be up
27 to about 60 acres, with a chance to be more specialized. These two land use
28 designations would allow for another tool to be able to do development. This
29 would be similar in concept to the PUD, but it would be much more targeted
30 towards dealing with Urban Form and Comp Plan initiatives.
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32 Mr. Trias closed the presentation by suggestion that a more pattern book feel
33 needs to be provided within the land development regulations.
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35 Mr. Trias passed out the text related to his power point presentation.
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37 Mr. Kelly made a comment about Mrs. Ferrick’s concern about infill and
38 transects, Mr. Trias’ response about transects and the communities concern
39 and education regarding the same.
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41 Mr. Trias stated that he does not object to concerns such as the desire to
42 produce low density projects and he feels that “it is very detrimental to the
43 committee’s efforts and not useful to say things like we are going to have
44 violations of the transect, such as high-rises right next to single family homes
Comment [kyw3]: It’s fine to put things like this
45 and that no one is proposing that and until somebody proposes that he rd
in quotes, but since you refer to him in the 3 person
at some point you’ve gone outside the recitation. Be
46 doesn’t think that it is a good idea to imply that that is what’s being proposed.”
sure to stay within the confines of exactly what’s
said.
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2 Mrs. Ferrick stated that that’s the question she had asked at the last meeting
3 and that she was given the answer, yes, that it would work and that there
4 were various lots that were available in single family areas that the infill could
5 have high-rises next to them.
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7 Mr. Trias stated that my be it was, and may be it was not clearly stated, but
8 what he saying is he doesn’t think the discussion is helpful and he thinks that
9 it would be more helpful to look at the real ideas and the real spirit that is
10 being proposed.
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12 Mr. Trias understands that it is very important to allow for the preservation of
13 existing neighborhoods and that some of the ideas for preservation need to
14 be reviewed.
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16 Mr. Sanders stated that it’s easy to understand the process for preserving
17 environmentally sensitive lands or the core of White City, but what is more
18 thought provoking are those areas that started out as a five acre ranchette
19 and is now subdivide into three two acre lots that could destroy the whole
20 concept of logical additions to a city.
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22 Mr. Trias informed Mr. Sanders that there is a public process for that and
23 that’s the important thing. That the county needs the proper tools to make
24 this process flow smoothly, but getting those tools includes the public
25 discussion that needs to happen.
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27 Mr. Trias stated that some of the notes he made for himself was to make a
28 requirement to do some kind of public involvement process or Charrette,
29 because if you do public process in a constructive way then you end up with
30 something useful. However, he doesn’t think that doing the public process
31 will lead to a constructive out come, because what will possibly end up
32 happening is that they will wind up spending five hours before the Planning
33 Board talking about why they don’t like something. He feels that doing a
34 Charrette will have a better outcome.
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36 Mrs. Wood stated, that what she thinks a Charrette environment provides for,
37 (which she thinks was evident during the TVC process) is a good way to
38 introduce to the public the basis for planning, and that is the planning
39 profession only has two basic ways in which it can grow. These two ways
40 include Traditional Planning that has been around for centuries, which is what
41 Mr. Trias was talking about and the other is Conventional Planning, which has
42 been around since the advent of the automobile. Even though there are
43 variations of those methods, they are really the only two fundamental
44 methods that we know to plan by and you can only pick one way or the other.
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1 Mr. Trias explained that the Conventional approach is that each individual
2 parcel does everything by it self, meaning there is no real planning only
3 impacts. The other approach, which is the Traditional approach, is that there
4 is overall planning, except that it has to be in the right place, it has to be
5 compatible, etc… so it is much more complicated.
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7 Mr. Trias also explained that there is a clear superior way of doing this. The
8 problem is the public debate usually doesn’t lead to an easy solution,
9 because it is very controversial and there is a lot of miss information out
10 there, and the fear that bad things will happen because it is a long tradition of
11 bad things happening with bad development.
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13 Mr. Sanders, as an example brought up an issue the school board is having
14 regarding a school site that the public no longer wants because they lost a
15 150 zero lot line type community and the result of that is that the community
16 no longer wants the school built in the community, they want the school built
17 out on the fringe, which has lead to continued fights about were a school
18 should be located, and that they shouldn’t be in neighborhoods. Mr. Sanders
19 stated that as professionals and understanding building communities that
20 schools should not be on the fringe but in neighborhoods.
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22 Mr. Kelly agreed that schools should be in neighborhoods, but the size of the
23 scale of the school is also a part of the on going discussion regarding the
24 location of school sites.
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26 Mr. Sanders informed Mr. Kelly that schools are built according to the way
27 that Florida funds education.
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29 Mr. Kelly stated that apart of the Smart Growth issue would be to put scales
30 to the neighborhood school.
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32 Mrs. Ferrick stated that a lot of the general public doesn’t realize that all of the
33 funds generated from taxes for the school systems general funds first goes to
34 Tallahassee and are then allocated out to the school system and that is one
35 of the things that should be made clear to the general public.
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37 Mr. Gellerman mentioned, as a side note that it occurred to him that Down
38 Town Fort Pierce didn’t have additional funds which forced them to be more
39 logical and efficient during there development process.
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41 Mr. Trias rose the question of what did the City of Fort Pierce do different?
42 His opinion is that the additions and the subdivision regulations dealt with
43 very few things and that was streets. If other things, we now think are
44 important, like environmental impacts were not dealt with then it lead to the
45 deterioration of the structures of streets, etc.
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1 Mr. Kelly stated that a conflict may have been raised, however; one may have
2 been more important than the other at that time, which made one a priority
3 over the other. He also stated that there are many reasons why particular
4 issues may not have been addressed at that time.
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6 Mr. Sanders said that in 1920 a majority of the trips were pedestrian driven
7 and people didn’t want to have to walk very far so they put things very close,
8 which drove lot size. Now there are automobiles and we don’t have that
9 problem any more.
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11 Mr. Kelly stated that he thinks our priorities shifted.
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13 Mr. Trias said that if we look at the TVC, although it is not perfect, it deals with
14 a lot of the issues we haven’t dealt with in the past and the focus needs to be
15 on issues that have not been dealt with rather than on issues that are being
16 dealt with.
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18 Mr. Sanders stated that when we build, what we build needs to be tied
19 together as a community.
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21 Mr. Trias ended the conversation.
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23 Mr. Kelly stated that he would like to make sure that copies of all of the
24 material presented today were made available to the absent committee
25 members.
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C. Staff Presentation - Kara Wood
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29 Mrs. Woods gave a presentation on the form-based code principles. The
30 presentation included a discussion about different communities built using
31 form-based code principles and the need to have one written for our county
32 whether it be tweaked from an existing code or one being written specifically
33 for St. Lucie County. She
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35 Mrs. Wood also explained the difference between the use of the form-based
36 code and the zoning or use-based code.
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38 Mr. Kelly asked the question of how we deal with conflicts that may arise over
39 using an overlay zone over the existing use based code and how do we deal
40 with the existing, if a conflict arise.
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42 Mrs. Wood stated that adopting it as an overlay is one option, but another
43 option is to make it a regulatory code, with the idea of providing property
44 owners and the development community with different options. With these
45 options you would offer incentives, such as increased density and intensity for
46 the use of the form-based code versus the other.
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2 Mr. Kelly also stated that rather than driving toward the minimum density, we
3 need to make better decisions and inform and educate the community that
4 going towards the minimum density may not always be the best choice for the
5 community.
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7 Mr. Sanders stated that he thinks the whole concept of the form-based
8 transect is to specify the appropriate relationship between one location from
9 another for the use of density and intensity.
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11 Mr. Kelly asked the question of how is intensity measured?
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13 Mr. Reikenis gave a brief synoapsies of how he looks at density and intensity
14 by using some examples of what he has seen happen over the years.
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16 Mr. Trias stated that an easy way to measure intensity is by impact, meaning,
17 do we have enough water, roadway, etc., but he also states that it might not
18 be the best way to measure intensity recognizing that the educational
19 component of development is never ending.
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21 Mr. Trias followed up his comments by asking the question of how does the
22 committee make progress within the next two or three months towards
23 developing tools to measure these issues in a very practical way?
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25 Mr. Trias expressed his recommendation as supported in his power point
26 presentation and encouraged every member of the committee to do the same
27 until they came up with two or three good recommendations to take before
28 the County Commission and see how it goes from there.
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30 Mr. Kelly asked the committee for permission to go through the existing code
31 in order to bring some of the existing issues forward for discussion.
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33 Mr. Trias agreed that that was a good idea and encouraged every member to
34 do the same.
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36 Based on Mr. Trias recommendation Mr. Ridgley asked the question of
37 whether or not Future Land Use (Comp Plan) changes would be driven by the
38 county or the individual landowner, because if the county created an overlay
39 on someone’s property it would create some issues, however; if it is driven by
40 the land owner we would need to make sure that create code additions that
41 would say they would rather do that anyway.
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43 Mr. Trias agreed and Mr. Kelly stated that’s why they said create incentives
44 for those land owners who wanted to use the form-based code (Smart Code).
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1 Mr. Sanders stated that it is better to use a form-based code to preserve
2 some of the existing neighborhoods, such as White City, rather than fighting
3 about every inappropriate site plan that may come through for particular
4 areas.
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6 Mr. Trias states that another way to address issues of design within an area,
7 such as White City, when you don’t have a code is through the Historic
8 Preservation process.
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10 Mr. Trias asked for other comments of discussion.
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12 Mrs. Ferrick said that she wanted to thank Kara for the slide show; she felt it
13 was a really good presentation and she really enjoyed the meeting. She also
14 feels that more types of information like what was presented by Mr. Trias and
15 Mrs. Wood needed to be provided to the Commission and to the public.
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17 Mr. Trias told Mrs. Ferrick if she had any recommendations on getting
18 information to the Commission and public he would be happy to have them.
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D. Next steps in Smart Growth recommendations content and
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formatting.
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23 Mr. Kelly wanted to know what the goals for the next meeting are and if he
24 could have a copy of the readable pages of the transect zones presented in
25 the slide presentation.
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27 Mrs. Wood said that she would send an email to the group with the material
28 and a website link by which the information could be obtained on the web.
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30 For the next meeting Mr. Trias would like Mr. Kelly to prepare as much of his
31 recommendations from the existing code as possible and that each
32 committee member should work on the things that they think is most
33 important and discuss it during the meeting.
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4. Other Business
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37 None
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This meeting adjourned at 11:39 AM
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