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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMInutes 07-08-1999 LOCAL PLANNING AGENCY ST. LUCIE COUNTY, FLORIDA JULY 8, 1999 - SPECIAL MEETING MINUTES BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: Stefan Matthes, Ramon Trias, Diana Wesloski, Albert Moore, Charles Grande, Ed Lounds, Carson McCurdy BOARD MEMBERS ABSENT: Ed Merritt and Noreen Dreyer (excused) OTHERS PRESENT: James Lancaster, Assistant County Attorney; David Kelly, Planning Manager; Cyndi Snay, Planner II; and JoAnn Riley, Planning Technician PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE: The Pledge of Allegiance was led by Chairman Wesloski ANNOUNCEMENTS: Mr. Kelly stated that there was a conflict with meeting rooms tonight. He stated that this room was double scheduled for this meeting and a meeting of the Ft. Pierce Inlet Boat Ramp Group. He stated that the Ft. Pierce Inlet Boat Ramp Group meeting is being held in Conference Rooms B and C in the Civic Center. APPROVAL OF LOCAL PLANNING AGENCY MINUTES - SPECIAL MEETING OF MAY 13, 1999 Chairman Wesloski asked if there were any additions or corrections to the minutes. There being no additions or corrections to the minutes of the May 13, 1999 meeting, Chairman Wesloski asked for a motion. Mr. Lounds made a motion for approval, and it was seconded by Mr. Moore. Upon roll call, the motion was approved 6-0, with Mr. McCurdy abstaining. APPROVAL OF LOCAL PLANNING AGENCY MINUTES - SPECIAL MEETING OF MAY 27, 1999 Chairman Wesloski asked if there were any additions or corrections to the minutes. There being no additions or corrections to the minutes of the May 27, 1999 meeting, Chairman Wesloski asked for a motion. Mr. Moore made a motion for approval, and it was seconded by Mr. Lounds. Upon roll call, the motion was approved 6-0, with Mr. McCurdy abstaining. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 1 Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 2 PUBLIC HEARING - ST. LUCIE COUNTY COMPREHENSIVE PLAN HOUSING DATA AND ANALYSIS Mr. Kelly stated that Ms. Snay will cover most of the changes. He has a few comments that he would like to state. Mr. Kelly stated that this is an update of the prior plan. He stated that he believes he should make a comment about the twenty year old population data that is included in the draft. He stated the population information has been completed by the Shimberg Center for Affordable Housing as contracted with the State of Florida, Department of Community Affairs (DCA). He stated that the Planning Department was instructed to use these statistics by DCA. He stated that element shall be updated by 2003 or as soon as the 2000 Censu Mr. Kelly stated that the footer of the Housing Element reads April 12, 1999. This Element was actually produced last week, it has not been around since April. Ms. Cyndi Snay presented staff comments. Ms. Snay stated that the Housing Element deals primarily with the Unincorporated areas of the County. She stated that each municipality is required by law to have their own Housing Element. She stated that this element covers the unincorporated area of the County and St. Lucie Village, because of its size. St. Lucie Village has approximately 520 residents. Ms. Snay stated that an overview of the data indicates population has risen from 150,171 in 1990 to 179,133 in 1997. She stated the primary growth occurred in the City of Port St. Lucie, which added approximately 15,128 residential units between 1985 and 1995, which equates to approximately a 46% increase. Ms. Snay stated that the unincorporated area of the County increased by 1,954 units, a 6.5% increase. Of the existing units, approximately 55.5% were built between 1960 and 1995 and of these 70.3% are occupied, 17.6% are renter, and 12.1% are vacant. Ms. Snay stated that she would be happy to answer any questions. Chairman Wesloski asked if there were any questions for Ms. Snay. Mr. Lounds asked Ms. Snay if this element takes into consideration the aggressive annexation of Fort Pierce within the County. Ms. Snay stated that this element was created with data from the Shimberg Study and the 1990 Census. Mr. Lounds asked Ms. Snay if the first six months of 1999 annexation figures are reflected in this element. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 3 Ms. Snay stated no. Mr. Trias stated that according to the U.S. Census, the City of Fort Pierce lost 400 people from 1990 to 1998. He stated that given the fact that the City of Fort Pierce has annexed a substantial amount of land in that period, he finds it hard to believe that these numbers are correct. He stated that the City of Fort Pierce is concerned with how the population is counted. He believes the City of Fort Pierce is undercounted. He stated that the City of Fort Pierce will pay more attention to the figures and research them more because he does not believe they are accurate. Chairman Wesloski asked if there were any further questions for Ms. Snay. -Occupied Housing Units. He stated that he wondered why $400 was taken as an amount and if that would indicate increasing the ratios. For example, instead of the $350-$400, take $400-$500 and try to break the 68% down more to see where the real average lies, if the average was based on accumulation. Ms. Snay stated that the data sources were set up this way, as well as the 1990 Census. Mr. Matthes asked Ms. Snay if this was a figure that staff came up with. Ms. Snay stated no, it was data chosen from the U.S. Census as well as the Shimberg Study. him if we are using 1980 data. Ms. Snay stated that the Shimberg Study uses 1990 Census as the basis and other information they received from the State of Florida. Mr. Lounds stated that he realizes staff put a tremendous amount of work into this report and he realizes that the numbers are constantly changing. He asked Ms. Snay what impact would the changing numbers have in the next four or five years on this report if the aggressive annexation continues at its pace and what happens to this draft document with the annexation that has already occurred. Ms. Snay stated that once the 2000 Census is available, staff will have information that is more defined about who is annexing, and other issues as well. Mr. Lounds asked Ms. Snay if staff will readjust this information when the 2000 Census becomes available. Ms. Snay stated yes. Mr. Lounds asked Ms. Snay if she believes the changes will be as drastic as they were from 1980 to 1990. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 4 Ms. Snay stated that she is not sure. The statistical data is based on the Census, which is the most readily available data. Chairman Wesloski asked Ms. Snay when will the 2000 Census data be available. Ms. Snay stated that the data is usually available in three years. Mr. Trias stated that the 1998 estimates are available today from the U.S. Census. He stated that he read that data earlier this week, so he assumes that it is very recent. He stated that many people have told him that Fort Pierce is undercounted by perhaps 10,000 to 15,000 people because of migrant issues or whatever issue that may be the case. He stated that the City of Ft. Pierce is trying to look more closely at the way that the Census is being done and talking to residents in the community. Mr. Trias stated that the reason this is so important is there is a lot of public money that is allocated to Cities according to population. In past experiences, this has worked against the older Cities of Florida and in favor of new development. He stated that this is an incredibly serious issue if we are trying to encourage re-development in the Cities. He stated that he would at face value, given the fact that we have serious concerns about them. Chairman Wesloski asked if there were any further questions for Ms. Snay. At this time, Chairman Wesloski opened the public hearing on the Housing Element. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was anyone who would like to speak on this element. Ms. Jeanne Hearn, who resides in Indrio, addressed the Board. Ms. Hearn stated that she has some questions and concerns. She stated that population counts are very important in regards to grants, etc., and we really need to make sure our numbers are as accurate as possible. Ms. Hearn stated that she is concerned about mobile homes. She referenced Table 5-3 and asked if staff is stating that there are the same number of mobile homes in the unincorporated area as there are County-wide. She interprets that as there are no mobile homes in the other Cities. Ms. Snay stated that at the time this element was created she was waiting on information from the GIS Department. She stated that today there are 13,467 units in the entire County and of those, 10,841 are located in the unincorporated area. Ms. Hearn stated that there are a great deal more in the unincorporated County than in the Cities. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 5 Ms. Snay stated yes. Ms. Hearn stated that Table 5--Round Housing Units by Type, St. Lucie of the County, that the County has that many full time residents. Do we check these? Do they have homestead exemptions? She asked staff how they determine which are full time residents? For example, Causeway Trailer Park, probably only 15% of the residents remain for six months out of the year. Ms. Hearn stated that she is concerned that we are not getting an accurate picture as to why our tax base is so low. She stated that we need to have a firm grasp on what is creating the imbalance of the tax base. When we have this many units and six months of the year part of these people are not here supporting the County and are paying very little tax. She is very concerned. She has nothing against mobile homes. Ms. Hearn stated that Table 5-3 states the unincorporated area of St. Lucie County has 25% in mobile home units. Statewide they are at 9.6%. She stated that she believes the County is overloaded with mobile homes and it is really hurting the tax base of the County. She stated the County needs to have accurate tables in this element in order to obtain as many benefits at the State and Federal level as possible. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if he could check the homestead exemptions. Mr. Kelly stated that he would check. He does not believe you can homestead a mobile home. Chairman Wesloski stated that she does not believe mobile homes can claim homestead. Mr. McCurdy stated that he does not believe you can claim homestead, mobile homes in parks may be a different situation. Ms. Hearn stated that many of the parks own their property. Chairman Wesloski stated that the major parks, such as Spanish Lakes, are not owned. She would assume that these make up the bulk of the percentage. Ms. Hearn asked Mr. Kelly if the Census figures or voters registration would show whether they are permanent residents. Mr. Kelly stated that he did not know if he could cross reference it in any way but staff will check into it. Chairman Wesloski asked Ms. Snay how she arrived at this data. Ms. Snay stated that it is listed in the Census data as full time. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 6 Mr. Grande stated that he had a couple of questions. He stated that he thought mobile homes, what falls into the mobile home category, are homes that have vehicular stickers, so when they own the property, it is unimproved property, or in Spanish Lakes when they rent the property, the property tax is paid by the park owner. He stated that his impression is that mobile homes were not being taxed as homes, they are being taxed on a sticker basis as vehicles. Mr. Kelly stated that Mr. Grande is correct. The typical mobile home on a rental lot is treated as a motor vehicle. He stated that there are probably mobile homes, or at least manufactured homes, and there is a distinction between the two, where someone owns the property, the home is permanently tied down, and there may instances in those cases where it is treated as real property. He stated that the majority of mobile homes are in parks, where the park owner is paying the taxes, there would be no discussion of homestead, and staff would not be able to separate it. Mr. Grande stated that since the property has a temporary vehicle, as opposed to a building, the park owner is paying unimproved property rates for tax rates, which are relatively low and nobody is paying what would you think of as the improvement or the house part. He stated that he believes that what Ms. Hearn was trying to say is that the County has a disproportionately high number of truly mobile homes (tax sticker vehicles) and the tax rate is disproportionately low which explains a lot of our tax deficits. Mr. Kelly stated that certainly that has been a discussion over the years about mobile homes and do they or do they not pay their fair share. He stated that he doubts that a mobile home park and substantial as those made on another property. He stated that he is only speculating tonight and staff can look into these issues. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was anyone else who would like to speak on this element. Ms. Shirley Burlingham, 5312 Loggerhead Place, Fort Pierce, addressed the Board. Ms. Burlingham stated that population is a big issue, the County is losing funds from the State and Federal government. She stated that the method of counting is not good due to multiple residences. When the Census people come through, they are not asking where a resident is and if they claim this as their homestead or not. The County should be concerned about the Census. Ms. Burlingham stated that another area where there may be a discrepancy is when a mobile home leaves the factory, it has stamps on it. Once the mobile home is put into a park, taxes are paid on the property and on the mobile home, stamps are no longer put on the mobile home because the mobile home has become taxed real property. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was anyone else who would like to speak on this element. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 7 Ms. Lisa Butler, an attorney with Florida Rural Legal Services, addressed the Board. Ms. Butler stated that she wanted to address the issue of the portion of the Housing Element that covers Migrant Farm Worker Housing. She stated that there is a pressing need for housing that needs to be addressed by the Comprehensive Plan. Ms. Butler stated that a reference is made in the narrative to the deficit of housing for migrant farm workers in St. Lucie County, that 7,360 people do not have housing, as cited on page 13. She stated that on page 18 the narrative refers back to the 1980 Census information which understates the need. She stated that the Shimberg Study for Farm Worker Housing was based on a survey, it was not based on the 1980 Census. Ms. Butler stated the survey was done by the U. S. Department of Labor between 1993 and 1995, because many farm workers were left out of the Census. They found in their methodology, which the Department of Community Affairs has recommended that counties adopt, in St. Lucie County there were 8,149 farm workers and there is permanent housing as of 1995 for 739 people. Ms. Butler stated that she would urge that staff address in the narrative are the figures in projecting the need for additional housing. She asked how the figure was arrived at on page 18? She referenced Table 5-12 which states a housing deficit of 1,970 units. She believes this grossly understates the need. The Shimberg Study gives you what the need is. She stated that she would urge the County to come up with a Comprehensive Plan that addresses the present needs of the migrant farm workers in specific and measurable ways. Chairman Wesloski stated that there is another part to this element. Chairman Wesloski asked Ms. Butler if she has seen it. Ms. Butler stated that she has seen the outline of the Goals, Objectives, and Policies. Chairman Wesloski stated that she recalls adding a whole page addressing this issue. Mr. Kelly stated that there is an inconsistency between page 13 and 18. Page 13 contains the most current information, so page 18 needs to be updated to be consistent with page 13. He stated that Ms. Butler picked up an area where the number is too small. Ms. Butler stated that the figure that really got her attention was 279 farm workers in St. Lucie County. Mr. Kelly stated that staff will update this information. He stated that the data and analysis is the portion of the plan that attempts to identify the need. He stated that he believes we have recognized there is a need, although he is not really comfortable with what the need is. He stated that we have a number from the Shimberg Study and as we talk to various people he is not sure that that is the number, but there is a number, and it is a need. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 8 Mr. Kelly stated that this has been discussed prior to tonight and there is a joint concern of the County and the City of Fort Pierce. He stated that staff has indicated in the Goals, Objectives, and Policies to re-establish the Low Cost Housing Task Force to truly access the need and to truly try to come up with a solution to the problem. He stated that we need housing but he does not believe we need to provide housing to 7,000 people, because some of them are participating in the present housing market. We really need to look at the numbers and what do we need to do. Ms. Butler stated that it was a mandate from the State that the County should address the needs of the migrant farm workers because there have been problems in the past with their needs not being met. She stated that they may end up in other rental situations, however it is apparent there are a large number of people who need housing. She stated that there is housing which needs improvements as well as there is a lot of HUD money coming into the City of Fort Pierce to address some of the neighborhood problems. Ms. Butler stated there is legislation that may be proposed at the State and Federal level to develop more farm worker housing. She believes the City and the County need to address what is considered a glaring need at this point and she would be happy to provide additional information that she has access to support what the need is. She stated that in St. Lucie County the number of permanent units for farm workers has decreased greatly since 1995. She stated that she called the Health Department today and as of this year there are under 200 housing units available. Ms. Butler stated that she would be happy to provide more information. She asked Mr. Kelly if the narrative would be further refined. Mr. Kelly stated that this draft will be further refined and forwarded to the Board of County Commissioners as a whole plan instead of presenting it piece by piece. He stated that his recommendation will be that we re-establish the Task Force, take a look at the need, figure out if there is adequate housing being provided that should remain in place, do we need to provide 7,000 units, what do we really need to do, and then come up with a plan to accomplish that. provide more housing. Mr. Kelly stated that this does not contain a plan to provide more housing, it contains Goals, Objectives, and Policies that state we need to get together and come up with that plan. Ms. Butler stated that she would be happy to help. Mr. Lounds asked Ms. Butler for her definition of migrant housing. Ms. Butler stated that the definition that would be best in this context is the definition used in the Shimberg Study, which is a person who migrates in agriculture, traveling over 35 miles from their permanent residence. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 9 Mr. Lounds asked Ms. Butler to describe migrant housing. Ms. Butler stated that farm work housing/migrant housing can vary with the characteristics of the individual. She stated that it needs to be decent, safe and sanitary, it could be a combination of single-family units, duplexes, it should be residential housing. She stated that there is one housing development in Homestead which is a combination of duplexes, single-family homes, and some homes for single workers to share. Mr. Lounds stated that he has toured that facility. He stated that one of the problems which he would like to share with the Board, staff, and Ms. Butler is the agriculture community of St. Lucie County used to have a great deal of migrant housing between 1950 and 1970. He stated that the grove owners and cattle ranchers provided housing for their labor to use. He stated that with the farsighted intelligence of the federal government a lot of that went array because they had to have advanced potable water, sewer, so many square feet per occupant, and the agricultural industry got out of it because of the regulations, fines and pressures put on them to bring it beyond what they could economically handle. Mr. Lounds stated that labor went to the City of Fort Pierce as it did to the agricultural city center of the areas. He mentioned Eloise, Winter Haven, Homestead, Belle Glade, Pahokee and a few other areas. He stated that the cities had to take this on because they could provide potable water, sewer, the square footage of housing that the Counties could not provide. He stated that he is not sure St. Lucie County could still provide that, with the current water and sewer utilities. utler is asking for without a tremendous expenses. He stated the City would be more adequately suited by simply annexing more of the County. Ms. Butler stated that this is a complicated relationship between the City and the County and that she thinks that the mandate is on both. She stated that as to the ultimate costs it comes to rural or urban development. She stated that there are limitations and also government funding opportunities. She stated that there is a big push in the State of Florida to address this need, and she believes there will be legislation for funding to back it up. Mr. Lounds asked Ms. Butler if the legislation is coming for the benefit of cities to improve some of their urban farm areas that they have annexed or is it also available to the counties to improve theirs. Ms. Butler stated that State Representatives are considering presenting legislation to the Senate, so it is whatever they decide. She stated that Governor Bush put in a bill for $30 million and Federal Disaster Aid from Congress this year. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was anyone else who would like to speak on this element. Ms. Betty Lou Wells, 1124 Jasmine Avenue, Fort Pierce, addressed the Board. Ms. Wells stated that she had a couple of questions and a comment. She stated that she received the May bulletin from the League of Women Voters today and a mention was made that a group in Jacksonville Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 10 market program and the phase out of Section VIII project based assistance and support local efforts for the development of affordable housing especially for the low income working poor. Ms. Wells asked the Board if they were aware that Section VIII housing will be phased out. Chairman Wesloski stated that she believes there is someone in the County who works with affordable housing. Mr. Kelly stated that Human Services Department had input in the Goals, Objectives, and Policies. Chairman Wesloski suggested that Ms. Wells contact the Human Services Department. Ms. Wells stated that Tables 5-12 and 5-13 on page 13 have been struck through and asked Mr. Kelly if they will be replaced. Mr. Kelly stated that they will not be replaced. He stated that once the Task Force is re- established the intent would be to develop new statistics to replace those in the Tables 5-12 and 5-13. He stated that he has never been fully comfortable with the overall statistics, locally we should be able to figure out where we are, and address the need. Ms. Wells asked Mr. Kelly if this will force a renumbering of the other tables. Mr. Kelly stated that staff has not renumbered anything through this portion of the process because things are changing, and we would be renumbering continually. Ms. Wells a workers participate in the general housing market, as well as finding shelter in units designed for Mr. Kelly stated that he believes they are the units that Ms. Butler spoke of, where she stating that in 1995 we had approximately 700, and a few years we had 400, and now we have 235. He stated that he may have some of the numbers wrong, but there are some in the County, and that number is apparently dwindling. Mr. Kelly stated that they are migrant worker units that Ms. Butler spoke of, they could be single- family homes, duplexes, or a unit designed for four, six or eight single workers to share while they are in town. They are units that were built to be migrant housing. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was anyone else who would like to speak on this element. Ms. Marge Thomas, Fort Pierce, addressed the Board. Ms. Thomas stated that she wondered about the concept of a small town where there would be multiple units, single-family units, a grocery store, etc., where the migrant farm workers would feel comfortable being together. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 11 Chairman Wesloski stated that she recalls Ms. Thomas and Mr. Trias discussed this and it was decided that the Task Force would get together and decide if that was a solution. Mr. Kelly stated that this was discussed and Mr. Trias brought up the fact that many of the surrounding Counties have a historic town, St. Lucie County does not have anything parallel to that, and would it be possible to go outside of the urban service boundary to do something like this. Mr. Kelly stated that his response to this was yes, as long as urban services were provided in some matter. He stated that this would be a major undertaking to build a whole town with all of its infrastructure, and these are issues that the Task Force will have to wrestle with. Ms. Thomas asked Mr. Kelly if government would be able to help with this. Mr. Kelly stated that will be part of the discussion. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was anyone else who would like to speak on this element. Hearing no further comments in favor or in opposition to the element, Chairman Wesloski closed the public portion of the hearing. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if staff will update the numbers on pages 13 and 18. Mr. Kelly stated yes. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if staff will renumber all of the tables. Mr. Kelly stated yes. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if there is a way to address the importance of the Census and perhaps the Board would like to specify that a member of staff be designated to monitor the work of the Census Bureau. Mr. Kelly stated that the Census is critically important, he is not sure that it is a Comprehensive Plan Objective or Policy. He stated that aside from the Comprehensive Plan, this issue is critically important to the City, County, and the Census Bureau. He stated that staff supports the efforts of the Census Bureau, he is not sure whether or not it should be incorporated into the Comprehensive Plan. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if possible when discussions take place at the County Commission level that he could express the concern of the Planning and Zoning Commission and the audience. Mr. Kelly stated that it will be passed on and he has spoken to a few Board members recently who have commented on specific issues that have come out of the Planning and Zoning meetings which they could have only gleaned by reading the minutes. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 12 Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly how often the Comprehensive Plan is updated. Mr. Kelly stated every five years. At times it seems to get stretched out to more than five each time. He pointed out that we are now updating the 1990 Comprehensive Plan, and that would be an example of how it is not always on schedule. Chairman Wesloski stated that she would like to make a suggestion to revisit the Comprehensive Plan when the 2000 Census data is available. Mr. Kelly stated that would be within the five year cycle. He stated that he does not think that it is in the best interest to wait for every five years, but to continually update the plan as the information becomes available. Chairman Wesloski asked what would be the pleasure of the Board. Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Kelly if it would be wrong in presenting this to the County Commissioners, for the need for a joint Task Force to address the migrant problem in St. Lucie County as a whole including Port St. Lucie and the City of Fort Pierce. Mr. Kelly stated that he believes the County Commission will establish its own policy and that policy will recommend having a low cost Housing Task Force. He stated that the policy may be specific enough to specify membership on the Task Force, having a representative from each of the cities. He stated that he is not sure if the policy will be that detailed. As we establish the Task Force we will need to look at the players in the process and bring them together. He stated that the need for the policy is apparent and it will not work without a broad range of people. Mr. Lounds stated that he believes this document is a good piece of work and he compliments staff. He has a problem with the ambiguity of the numbers in the document. He stated that he was not sure if he would like to make a motion that this Board forward this element to the County Commission intact for their approval, feeling at ease with the figures in the element. He understands the figures are the best staff has available. Chairman Wesloski stated that he could make a motion to adopt the element as is, with the reservation that he would like to see updated data, if possible. Mr. Kelly stated that the motion may contain language stating that the Board would like to see it updated as soon as the 2000 Census information is available, including updates of ranges as mentioned by Mr. Matthes. Mr. Lounds stated that he would like language in a motion to that effect. He stated that he would also like to note, in the record, that staff be complimented for putting this together so they are not criticized for the falsehood of figures currently available. He stated that staff gathered information based on what was available and he does not want that to go back to haunt staff or this Board. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 13 Mr. Kelly stated that staff appreciates that. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Lounds if that was a motion. Mr. Lounds stated yes. Mr. Trias stated that he would feel comfortable with a paragraph stating that there is limited accuracy in the data and the Board as some concerns. He stated that this would be a fair way to approach this issue. He stated that there is only so much data and the data comes from the sources mentioned and there are some concerns about it, and it should be worked on if possible. Mr. Kelly stated that at the bottom of page one, an attempt was made. He stated that paragraph Mr. Trias stated that it does not critique the data. Mr. Kelly asked Mr. Trias if he would like the paragraph inserted at the bottom of page one. Mr. Trias stated yes. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Lounds if his motion stands. Mr. Lounds stated yes. Chairman Wesloski asked for a second. Mr. Trias seconded the motion. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was any discussion. Mr. Moore stated that he has a problem with putting in a critique, as suggested by Mr. Trias, stated that it is not the fault of anyone that it is not updated. He does not like criticizing and not having a better alternative. Chairman Wesloski stated that this is all the Board has, and the Board is stating that they question the Census numbers. Chairman Wesloski stated that her point of view is that the Board understands this is all they have, and the Board questions if it is all correct. Mr. Lounds stated that he feels it is inaccurate but that it is the best data available. He stated that a critique as suggested by Mr. Trias would cover a lot of issues. He stated that annexation from Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 14 the City has concerned several people as it changes, the fact that Census information taken in Mr. Moore stated that the language in the element states that it is based on 1980 data, obviously it is not updated. He stated that a mention is made when the data becomes available the information will be updated. He stated that it seems like there is a more diplomatic way of Mr. Trias stated that he would not phrase it like that because we do not know if the figures are enough people have told him, people who do this for a living, that they have concerns and he is concerned. He believes this narrative needs to occur at some point because otherwise, all of this will be taken at face value exactly as presented. He does not believe that would be fair, given the fact that some people believe that there are other opinions. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Lounds if he would consider changing his motion to state that he questions some of the data. Mr. Lounds stated yes. Chairman Wesloski clarified that Mr. Lounds is not stating that the data is wrong, he is stating that he is not sure it is correct. Mr. Lounds stated that he is not sure the data is correct because the data being used is 20 years old. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Lounds if he would like to rescind his motion, or leave it as is, discuss it and vote. Mr. Lounds stated that he would like to hear what Mr. Grande has to say. He stated that his motion is to forward the element to the Board of County Commissioners as written with comments, and the comments are: The Planning and Zoning Commission feels the figures are possibly not current. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 15 Mr. Trias stated yes. Mr. Grande stated that Board has covered everything without being directly negative. Mr. Lounds stated that Mr. Grande is correct. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was any further discussion. Upon roll call the motion was approved, 7-0. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 16 Mr. Kelly stated that he has spent the last two days with Ms. Wells taking notes regarding her comments, many of which are excellent. He stated that he would like to go through the document in no particular order. He stated that the County continues to have a Recreation and Open Space Element in the Comprehensive Plan even though the State has repealed the necessity to have one. He stated that the County believes that it is important to look at Recreation and Open Space. He stated that Ms. Wells provided him with a memorandum stating that the Study Group supports the decision to keep it in the Comprehensive Plan. and private recreation available within the community is so directly involved with people, the quality of life and their economy, that we request that you not only retain a Recreation Element, but that you improve it by seeking the advice and input of the many groups that have an interest in local recreation. Among those groups should certainly be the Recreation Advisory Board, the Land Acquisition Comm Mr. Kelly stated that the bottom line is staff has put together a document and Ms. Wells is suggesting that we take this document to a number of groups and have them review it and at this time verify its accuracy. He stated that as he and Ms. Wells reviewed the Element they had a number of questions, primarily on the Tables. He stated that he would like to share the following comments, recommendations, and suggestions of Ms. Wells. The County seek Land Acquisition Selection Committee, Recreation Advisory Committee and other groups input on the document. Restructure the Park Types by function. Mr. Kelly stated that if you look at the Tables there are letters and numbers. S = Special Facilities, N = Neighborhood Facilities, P = Pocket Parks, R = Regional Parks, and C = Community Parks. He stated that this does not work with every situation, for example Bear Point became a Neighborhood Park because it was small, it makes no sense for Bear Point to be a Neighborhood Park because it serves much greater than a neighborhood, in fact there is no neighborhood for it to serve. Ms. Wells requested that staff look at the function of the parks and regroup them. Clarify the map reference, so others can understand what the reference letters stand for. On page 9-8 the list of City Facilities is not up-to-date. For example, Kimberly Bergalis Park is not listed. Mr. Kelly stated that these lists need to be accurate for inventory purposes. Needs Analysis Section, staff stated that no surveys had been taken. Ms. Wells would like to know when will surveys be done. Mr. Kelly stated that it was not the intent to do surveys. Mr. Kelly stated that the intent was to look to the national standards for various items which are based on population, and as Ms. Wells indicated, staff will go back to the Recreation Advisory Board to make sure the standards make sense. Indicate the need for additional boat ramps, more pools and more lifeguards/lifeguard hours. Ms. Wells questioned only going out to 2010 with the planning period. Mr. Kelly stated that staff will look at this. There is an inconsistency with the total beach frontage within the plan. Local Planning Agency July 8, 1999 Page 17 are as follows: Indian Hills Golf Course public or private. Table 9-3 acreage and parking on some of the columns, a definition of shelter, and some blanks that need to be filled in. Recommended changes to the column headings. She would like to see a column that indicates funding source (i.e. was the property purchased with Environmentally Sensitive Land funds, Beach Bond, etc.) so that we have an inventory of where we got the money from. Recommended columns to indicate whether there are lifeguards, the hours the parks are open, who owns the parks, who maintains them, and how to contact someone about the park. She recommended deleting three columns - Amphi-Theaters, Camp Sites and Boat Ramps. She suggested mentioning the numbers for these items in a footnote. Mr. Kelly stated that he believes he mentioned all of Ms. Wells comments, if he missed anything it was not deliberate, and that Ms. Wells would have a chance to speak later if there was anything that he missed. Mr. Kelly stated that he would be happy to answer any questions. Chairman Wesloski asked if there were any questions for Mr. Kelly. Mr. Trias stated that he believes the Fort Pierce Library Park should be eliminated from the Table since it will soon disappear. He stated that he is assuming this is the area that is located behind the existing Library. Mr. Kelly stated that the Fort Pierce Library Park is a one acre site. Mr. Kelly stated that he believes a general update is needed and he would like to request that Mr. Trias help with this update. Mr. Trias stated that he would be happy to help. Mr. Lounds stated that he does not have a problem leaving out Amphi-Theater. Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Kelly if he would consider a column to show if any of these are income generating. Mr. Kelly stated that is a good idea. Mr. Lounds referenced page 9-11, Table 9-4. Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Kelly how he arrived at the decrease in population projections for Fort Pierce if they continue to increase their acreage/land size. Mr. Kelly stated that the changes in corporate limits are not reflected in the population changes. He stated these figures are from the University of Florida Bureau of Business and Economic Research and Shimberg Center for Affordable Housing. He stated that maybe staff should add some local knowledge to the Table, and under the source indicate the source as local changes. Mr. Lounds stated that he has two concerns with Recreation and the development of the Airport. He stated that we have discussed this in other segments of the Comprehensive Plan, there is not a lot here discussing the possibility of taking lands bordering the Airport for recreational facilities. Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Kelly if developing areas that could be used for recreational facilities should be addressed in this element. Mr. Kelly stated that it could be put in this element. He stated that there are two ways to measure recreation, either one has been acceptable. He stated that the County can look at acres of land in public where we are not in good shape, and the funds are not available to bring all of them up. He stated that in 1990 the decision was made to compare acres and this document continues to compare acres. He stated that he believes acres are the most important, because it is a starting point. If you do not have Mr. Kelly stated that he felt the Board should know about the other method. He stated that the County is behind in some areas. He stated that Recreation has put together a Capital Improvements Element with a summary for the Board to see as they look at the element. He stated that this element is the one that really looks at facilities and a very large capital need (at present an unfunded need). He stated that when we look at facilities we look at not only their capital portions but their long term operation and maintenance. Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Kelly how staff addresses the improvements of facilities in this document to upgrade the land use. He stated that for example, the north County has and abundance of land, and he feels a shortage of facilities. He stated that there are no picnicking and small community activities in Lakewood Park and the north County area. Mr. Lounds stated that he would like this element to address County-wide facilities as he believes it takes a message to the Board of County Commissioners and the people. He stated that if we can have Art in public places, we should be able to have Recreation in public places. Mr. Lounds stated that this element does not address the Savannah Recreation Park. Mr. Kelly asked Mr. Lounds which Savannah. Mr. Lounds stated the campground on Midway Road. Mr. Kelly asked Mr. Lounds if he was speaking of the County portion. Mr. Lounds stated yes. He stated that he because of its uniqueness it should be addressed separately in this element. Mr. Trias stated that he believes it would be useful to have a maintenance column. He stated that some of the County parks are in pretty bad shape, from the landscaping and access point of view. He stated that he believes it would be very useful in the inventory to note this, which may help prioritize some of the projects. Mr. Grande stated that he believes this element should be reviewed by Jim David in Mosquito Control. He stated that if he understands correctly, the vast majority of the facilities that have been purchased with ESL funds are being opened as public parks. He stated that there is an existing fishing pier at Bear Point. He stated that there are fishing platforms at Bear Point, Middle Cove, and Blind Creek. He stated that there is a tremendous amount of acreage and he believes there is an entire section of Mr. Kelly stated that he did not read the entire list, he stopped before he reached Mosquito Control. He stated that they are on the list of people to contact. He stated that Mr. Grande is right in speaking of the Island. Mr. Grande stated that in regards to Mr. Lounds concern, it would include one more boat and canoe launch. Mr. Kelly referenced the comment made by Mr. Grande that the majority of the land is through Mosquito Control. He stated that is not necessarily true when you at the things that are going on out west. He stated that in the eastern portion of the County, Mr. Grande is correct. Mr. Matthes asked Mr. Kelly if he said that there are two measurable ways to plan the recreation. today, the County looked at the total recreation package, the required funding, and recognized that a plan could be written with a level of service standards that spoke to linear feet of fishing piers per thousand population. He stated that we could write a plan that we absolutely could not fund and in a few years we would be back explaining to the State why. Mr. Matthes asked Mr. Kelly what is the impact of the County not meeting the measurable criteria of ball fields, basketball courts, tennis courts, etc., and what kind of financial burden would that put on the County. Mr. Kelly stated that he is only speculating why the County chose this method. He stated that if you have two ways to set level of service standards, you are probably going to choose the one you can meet. Mr. Matthes asked Mr. Kelly if there is another conduit that the County can implement to set these standards not in the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Kelly stated that because the State has repealed the need for a Recreation Element means we really t level of service standards in the Comprehensive Plan. He stated that it sounds bad, but it may give the County the opportunity to write down realistic needs without being criticized, if Mr. Matthes asked Mr. Kelly if the State will hold the County accountable if the Recreation and Open Space Element is in the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Kelly stated that he will have to check with DCA. It may give the County the opportunity to put in the inventory, Goals, Objectives, and Policies, and to speak to the importance of recreation within the community. Mr. Trias asked Mr. Kelly if it would be possible to have some of these as requirements in the Land Development Code, particularly when talking about neighborhood parks, it maybe another way to provide for recreation that the County would not have to fund. Mr. Kelly stated that he does not understand what Mr. Trias is asking. Mr. Trias stated that if he was setting the level of service, one of the things that he would try to have is small parks within walking distance, so that children could walk there. For example, it does not do any good to have 1,000 acres of neighborhood parks if no child can walk there. He stated that one way to accomplish this is through the development review process. Mr. Kelly asked Mr. Trias if he is stating that the requirements be placed on the developer rather than the looking to the government. Mr. Trias stated that he did not know if this is what the County wants to do, but that it may be one way to do it. Mr. Kelly stated that this is done through the PUD process. He stated that the County does not do this with a straight zoning or subdivision, and maybe that is a way to look at it. Mr. Trias stated that this is a huge loophole and every municipality and County has the same problem. He stated that a development with straight zoning with no requirements for the open space then becomes the responsibility of the County to provide the open space. Mr. Kelly stated that the only place to date where this has been addressed is the Recreation Impact Fee. For example, each home that is built the County collects a fee and attempts to put parks in place. He hich leads to bigger parks. He stated that the County has made an attempt, but maybe we should go further. Mr. Trias stated that the general philosophy has been that a beach park, which can be used by the whole community, it makes sense to be a County facility. He stated that the County also has neighborhood parks such as Maravilla Park which has a gazebo, which at one point was a County park. He stated that there is a real question as to why some are considered County parks and why some are harge of the some of the parks would work better as City parks and vice versa. Mr. Kelly stated that he could not say for sure which parks are owned by the County and which are owned the City, and there are some questions as to who maintains. Chairman Wesloski stated that there is not any maintenance on South Beach, in the City limits, and the County owns the park. Mr. Trias stated that is the practical ramification, the fact that there is the South Causeway Park that that could be one of the reasons. Mr. Kelly stated that Ms. Wells recommendation to add two columns: ownership and maintenance both. Mr. Trias stated that Memorial Park is interesting because it is owned by the City, it is leased by the County, and the City is doing some of the maintenance, in the end, no one knows what is going on. He stated that the ultimate result is usually a lack of quality. He stated that it would be a good thing to clarify some of this information. Mr. Kelly stated that the first step is to figure out who owns what park. Chairman Wesloski asked if there were any more questions from the Board. At this point, Chairman Wesloski opened the public portion of the hearing. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was anyone who would like to speak on this element. Ms. Shirley Burlingham, 5312 Loggerhead Place, Fort Pierce, addressed the Board. Ms. Burlingham asked Mr. Kelly if bicycle paths would be under Transportation or part of the Recreation element. Mr. Kelly stated that in general they are under transportation related issues, but there are bicycle paths that are strictly recreational and they need to be reflected in this element. Ms. Burlingham stated that they are a big asset to the community. Ms. Burlingham stated that there are some nice fishing piers at Pepper Park and they are not mentioned. She stated that if a column for fishing is added, it would be important to mention them because people need to know they are there. Chairman Wesloski asked if there were any other questions or comments from the public. Mr. Bill Hearn, who resides in Indrio, addressed the Board. Mr. Hearn stated that Ms. Wells did a lot of work on this element which should be recognized and Mr. Kelly reflected such in his presentation. Mr. Kelly stated that he hoped he gave that impression. Mr. Hearn stated that as a 20 year former member of the Recreational Advisory Board of St. Lucie type of a document, he does not believe the Advisory Board would be the most knowledgeable source Mr. Hearn referenced Mr. Matthes comment about the decision made in 1990. He stated that he was involved in the discussions and it was purely a decision made on trying to look as good as we could. He stated that the County had this huge Savannah State Park which contributed a tremendous amount of acreage to recreation facilities and it appeared to give a lot of credibility to the County in terms of the recreation that was available. He stated that he is not sure this is the best way to judge what your recreation facilities provide for the community because everyone is not interested in that type of thing. think w to shoot for. He stated that as an Advisory Board member, they were continually looking at putting out fires all the time. He stated there are always a bunch of people coming to you with deficiencies in the recreation area. He stated that he believes we need to have standards, an impression we make on visitors that they may return and spend a lot of money on the community. Mr. Hearn referenced the Indrio North Savannahs. He stated that there is a half of a mile long trail that goes out into the Savannah that would add a lot of linear feet to the statistics on that facility. He stated that we may also want to include the roads that are going to be abandoned and can be used for hiking, horseback riding, etc. interest in this. Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Hearn when the decision was made in 1990 if they also addressed the facilities as well, in a relationship to the size of land. Mr. Hearn stated that his comments tonight were based on what was included in the 1990 Comprehensive Plan. He stated that the decision was made to use the amount of acreage because of the huge size of the Savannah State Reserve that appeared to make the County look acceptable in Chairman Wesloski asked if there was anyone else who would like to speak on this element. Hearing no further comments in favor or in opposition to the element, Chairman Wesloski closed the public portion of the hearing. Chairman Wesloski provided a recap: The changes suggested by Ms. Wells will be incorporated. Ms. Burlingham suggested adding bicycle paths and the fishing piers at Pepper Park. Mr. Hearn suggested adding the roads in the Savannahs. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if this was correct. Mr. Kelly stated that is accurate. He stated that we have gone through a list of things that make this a much better inventory. He referenced the discussion about Housing and not having facts, and here we should be able to pull them together. He stated that we have not talked about anything that changes or leads to changes in policy other than level of service and how we go about that, acreage versus facilities issue. He stated that if the Board were to direct staff to fix the facts, staff will get the best. He stated the policy issue would be acreage versus facilities. He stated that if the Board wished to make a recommendation or sen Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if he is implying staff is not sure how DCA will look at it, if the Board decides to make a policy change of facilities versus acreage. Mr. Kelly stated that if we pull it problem because the County is not required to do it. He stated that he believes it is important to make Chairman Wesloski asked if there was any discussion. Mr. Lounds stated that he believes a statement addressing facilities should be included that compares facilities to the population need, so that we reflect the need. He stated that he would also like a column to show income generating. Mr. Lounds stated that he feels strongly toward the facility needs compared to the land acreage and he is not sure how to word such in this document. Mr. Kelly stated that he will work on some wording. He stated that the Board will have another opportunity to look specifically at facilities because the Capital Improvement Element will have a very long list of recreation facilities with dollar amounts. He stated that he believes there are $3 million dollars in facilities on the list that are not funded. He stated that the Board will have the opportunity to address that very specifically at that point. Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Kelly if he is suggesting that the Board leave it out of the document. Mr. Kelly stated no. He stated that it should be put in the document in a general manner to indicate the recognition that we have adequate acreage of Environmentally Sensitive Lands, we are pleased with the acreage and the quality of the acreage, but if we are not able to develop it and let the public on the Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Kelly about ballparks, covered picnic areas, camping facilities, trails. Mr. Kelly stated that covered picnic areas, camping facilities, and trails could be put on Environmentally Sensitive Land. He stated that we may not have enough land for ballparks. He stated that he would try and word something general in the document that states this Board believes facilities are an important part. Mr. Lounds asked Mr. Kelly if the Board should be concerned with the County versus City or is this a housekeeping issue and should not be addressed here. Mr. Kelly stated that he does not believe it would hurt for this Board to indicate that there may be some confusion, and as Mr. Trias stated, confusion leads to a lessened quality, and if we all understand our roles better, we might do a better job. Mr. Trias stated that it may be easier to fix the facts if we do it by talking to different people as opposed to the Board trying to tell you what the facts are. he facts were, but if we understood the facts, should the City and County get together and coordinate better on those parks. Mr. Lounds stated that he feels there should be language in this document that addresses the fact that there are discrepancies in land use maintenance and shared responsibilities that need to be constantly monitored. Mr. Trias stated that he believes that is a good way to explain it. Chairman Wesloski asked if someone would like to make a motion. Mr. Lounds made a motion to accept the Recreation and Open Space Data and Analysis with the following comments: Include the corrections made by staff. Include the corrections and comments made by Ms. Wells. Mr. Kelly stated that he believes the motion is to fix the facts and on the two policy issues, 1) reference the need for facilities, and 2) monitor the relationship between the maintenance and ownership of shared properties in the City and the County. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if Sportsman Park is in the City of Port St. Lucie. Mr. Kelly stated yes. ark West is on the list and asked Mr. Kelly if this park is located on Prima Vista Boulevard. Mr. Kelly stated that it is in the corporate limits, but it may be owned by the County. Mr. Matthes stated that it is not owned by the County. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly about the Stadium at St. Lucie West. Mr. Kelly stated that is a special park, it is shown on page 9-3 as S5, St. Lucie County Sports Complex. Chairman Wesloski clarified that there was a motion and a second. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was any discussion. Upon roll call the motion was approved, 7-0. OTHER BUSINESS: Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly about the packets the Board was given tonight. Mr. Kelly stated that the packets are for next Thursday evening. He stated that staff originally had Transportation Data and Analysis and Concurrency System planned because it was a light meeting. He stated that the Board no longer has a light meeting so staff will reschedule Transportation Data and Analysis and Concurrency System. Chairman Wesloski asked Mr. Kelly if they need to discuss additional meetings at this point. Mr. Kelly stated that at some time, but they do not need to do it tonight. th Mr. Lounds stated that he will not be able to attend the July 15 meeting, he will be out of State. th Mr. Trias stated that he will not be able to attend the July 15 meeting, he will be out of town. th Mr. Kelly stated that the next Comprehensive Plan meeting is scheduled for July 29 to review Infrastructure Elements. thth Chairman Wesloski clarified the meeting dates of July 15 and 29. Chairman Wesloski asked if there was any other business. There being no further business, the meeting adjourned at 8:52 p.m.